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machioveli
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2008, 10:11:17 PM » |
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where do you live? and what suggestions do you have? i live in Canada. I have following suggestions: - renounce openly your policy of regime-change. Make it clear, especially to the regimes concerned, that the US is not pursuing to depose regimes in Iran, Syria, North Korea, possibly other places. - open channels of communications with Iranians and Syrians. High level. Work towards a deal of the kind that u brushed away when it was proposed by Tehran in 2003 (I think it was May 2003 or June, soon after the Iraq affair. We have discussed that here.) - pressure Israel to get the hell out of the land that doesn't belong to it. West Bank, East Jerusalem, Golans, Shebaa. Within the framework of peace accord. Land for peace. Old old thing. (eh, forget this one, that's impossible that the US would ever use its aid as a lever on Israel. AIPAC.) - start taking tough with the House of Saud. Saudi clerics keep blasting the Shiite as infidels and sending "martyrs" to blow Shiite mosques and markets. House of Saud has plenty of influence over the clergy. Once Syrians get their land back, and Iranians get guarantees against unprovoked aggression (and regime-change), and once the Palestinian issue starts moving, the entire region will look a much healthier patient. Start working on these ones, and I'll keep providing good counsel. There is no magic solution to Iraqi troubles, surely not without rapprochements with Iran and Syria. So piss off the Saudis and Israel and make friends with Iran, Syria, and N. Korea. Is this really your solution for the problems in IRAQ? If so maybe you should keep complaining because your solutions do not make a bit of sense and are so biased. |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2008, 12:38:52 AM » |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2008, 12:55:04 AM » |
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Yes I do think that a tri-ethnic Iraq is still feasable. Why not?
Even with Sadr, thought other shiite leader could be more popular than him.
They all have to understand that peaceful negociations even slow ones, are preferable to an endless war with no winner and no loser, no victory and no abdication possible.
That sharing the pie is better than destroy it in an attempt to have all of it.
And the populations should learn that there is no shame and no betrayal in signing an agreement with rival communities, that even if this agreement is slightly unfair, it's much better than mutual genocide.
Once they understand that, tolerating their religious differences will be much easier.
Fred, I've always thought that a defacto tripartite Iraq should become official, with three parties in a national government making mutual decisions involving the whole of Iraq. -Terry What of the smaller minorities? |
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2008, 01:03:47 AM » |
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No, Wiglaf mate,
The three main ethnic groups in Iraq, being the Kurds, the Shia and the Sunni. They should and can learn to get along in a national government. Otherwise the wars, retributions and indeed Iraq will suffer from them. I can't imagine they all would see the benefits (not) of a general revolution. The biggest issues revolve around oil and other revenue, and who gets what percentage.
-Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2008, 09:58:24 AM » |
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So piss off the Saudis and Israel and make friends with Iran, Syria, and N. Korea.
yea, that's precisely the thrust of the argument. Machi, if u can't distinguish between "renouncing policy of regime-change" and "making friends", what are you good at then? Besides shouting "USA! USA!". Is this really your solution for the problems in IRAQ?
there is no intra-Iraqi solution to the problems in Iraq. Iraq doesn't exist as a nation. U won't solve this outside of regional context. Go waste another 5 000 lives to comprehend that. your solutions do not make a bit of sense and are so biased.
here's an unbiased solution for you: kill all the bad people on the planet. They are the only problem. Most of them are Muslims. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2008, 11:07:57 AM » |
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Machioveli
Opening hihg level chanel with Iran? Do you think Ayatholah Khamayni meet with pres. Bush like Gorbatchev and Reagan 20 years ago? No: Because the supreme leader cannot/don't want to meet with someone who is not a muslim.
That's why he accepted to meet with el-Baradei but not with Koffy Annan.
Now please tell how to hold talks with a leader who snubs the UN secretary because he is not a muslim?
Israel: I fully agree with pressuring Israel to leave the territories to the Palestinians, but that won't solve all the problem in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2008, 07:23:52 PM » |
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Fredledingue wrote: the supreme leader cannot/don't want to meet with someone who is not a muslim. http://bp1.blogger.com/_hBB_Ttek4Lk/RxaHoIoVGgI/AAAAAAAAAAU/i3oZOTLzaOA/s1600-h/khamenei+-+putin.jpgFreddie, your delusional warmongering seeking any absurd justifications for avoding talks with Tehran is real irritating. I don't know where u get these ideas that Ayatollah cannot meet a non-Musl or cannot say anything which is not a Koran quote, but do some basic research before announcing a new masterpiece. Your idee fixe about bombing Iran is real unhealthy, and it's origins are definitely not political but psychic. Now please tell how to hold talks with a leader who snubs the UN secretary because he is not a muslim?
or how to debate with a poster who snubs most basic well-known facts? |
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2008, 07:25:25 PM by Peisithanatos »
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Terry Mathis
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Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2008, 07:39:13 PM » |
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Fredledingue wrote: the supreme leader cannot/don't want to meet with someone who is not a muslim. http://bp1.blogger.com/_hBB_Ttek4Lk/RxaHoIoVGgI/AAAAAAAAAAU/i3oZOTLzaOA/s1600-h/khamenei+-+putin.jpgFreddie, your delusional warmongering seeking any absurd justifications for avoding talks with Tehran is real irritating. I don't know where u get these ideas that Ayatollah cannot meet a non-Musl or cannot say anything which is not a Koran quote, but do some basic research before announcing a new masterpiece. Your idee fixe about bombing Iran is real unhealthy, and it's origins are definitely not political but psychic. Now please tell how to hold talks with a leader who snubs the UN secretary because he is not a muslim?
or how to debate with a poster who snubs most basic well-known facts? Although in all honesty Pisces, a foreign leader is more likely to meet the President of Iran and not the 'Supreme Leader' or the ruling Mullahs. That would be at their discretion, not because of some religious quackery or something. Same idea though.  Regards Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2008, 04:14:01 PM » |
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Ho, please Peis', don't distord what I said!
Ayatholah and other iranian leaders have a very arrogant attitude toward the West and toward non-muslim in general.
(I never said it was forbiden fo Ayatholah to meet a non-muslim when it can help buying weapons).
I don't want Iran to be bombed. I just said that their stubborn continuation of their nuke program will cause them to be bombed. And I certainly don't like it. Otherwise I would not care about their nuclear program.
IMO High Level talks have gone as far as they could get and the messages from both sides have been understood very clearly by both sides.
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2008, 06:29:27 PM » |
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Fred asked: don't distord what I said!
don't distort what YOU said! U are backing away and re-interpreting your absurd declaration. when it can help buying weapons or air plane spare parts. Iran has indicated it was seeking to buy American plane parts for its Boeings. Ayatollah would gladly meet to talk about that. I made a thread here called "Iranian 2003 Proposal" or smth like that. It's there, it's known, it's clear. The language of the text of unambiguous. Iran offered comprehensive rapprochement including the Palestinian question. Don't lie about Ayatollah's neurotic inability to take non-Muslims seriously or Iran's dedication to a mutual nuclear extermination festival, or other silly stuff. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2008, 01:28:02 AM » |
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No, Wiglaf mate,
The three main ethnic groups in Iraq, being the Kurds, the Shia and the Sunni. They should and can learn to get along in a national government. Otherwise the wars, retributions and indeed Iraq will suffer from them. I can't imagine they all would see the benefits (not) of a general revolution. The biggest issues revolve around oil and other revenue, and who gets what percentage.
-Terry
But who speaks for the Christians, Yazidis, Turkmen, Shabaks, Mandaeans, Bahai's and various other small groups? The three groups you speak of are large enough to look out for themselves in some meaningful manner. |
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2008, 01:35:21 AM » |
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That is the crux of the matter. Especially in the North, Turkey has repeatedly stated that it would not stand by idly when interests of the Turkmen are in question. Once the coalition pulls out Turkish intervention on the Turkmen's behalf may not just be diplomatic in nature. That would in effect put the Kurds in a tight spot....
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Terry Mathis
High Society
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Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2008, 01:35:56 AM » |
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No, Wiglaf mate,
The three main ethnic groups in Iraq, being the Kurds, the Shia and the Sunni. They should and can learn to get along in a national government. Otherwise the wars, retributions and indeed Iraq will suffer from them. I can't imagine they all would see the benefits (not) of a general revolution. The biggest issues revolve around oil and other revenue, and who gets what percentage.
-Terry
But who speaks for the Christians, Yazidis, Turkmen, Shabaks, Mandaeans, Bahai's and various other small groups? The three groups you speak of are large enough to look out for themselves in some meaningful manner. I haven't a clue Wigwaf.  -Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2008, 01:45:31 PM » |
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I don't think minorities need to fear so much. It's not like the Kurd stateman will go door-to-door to distribute petrodollars to each kurd family, while carefuly bypassing non-kurd homes. No, the oil revenue will have to be used for road, hospital and school projects that will be used by everybody.
They can't forbid christians or bahai from driving on the new asphalted highway for example.
Finaly if they can find a way to agree with the two other big groups, they can be fine with the small ones too.
They are not monsters.
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2008, 02:02:17 PM » |
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I don't think minorities need to fear so much. It's not like the Kurd stateman will go door-to-door to distribute petrodollars to each kurd family, while carefuly bypassing non-kurd homes. No, the oil revenue will have to be used for road, hospital and school projects that will be used by everybody.
They can't forbid christians or bahai from driving on the new asphalted highway for example.
Finaly if they can find a way to agree with the two other big groups, they can be fine with the small ones too.
They are not monsters.
Given the recent history of slaughter of such groups, will they all live long enough for such peace to take effect? |
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
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