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Author Topic: How will it end? (Iraq)  (Read 853 times)
Fredledingue
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« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2008, 02:09:00 PM »

Which slaughters? Have an example? Sources? And if any, in which these slaughtrers differ from those between the 3 main groups?
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« Reply #46 on: February 04, 2008, 03:06:08 PM »

Which slaughters? Have an example? Sources? And if any, in which these slaughtrers differ from those between the 3 main groups?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabak_people
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6293230.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6698503.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3529364.stm

They differ in that their relative power to defend themselves is negligible.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #47 on: February 05, 2008, 10:26:50 AM »

Thanks for these links. The media don't talk enough about them.
Maybe because the number of those killed or displaced is far less than those from the main communities, but proportionaly to their original population it's unacceptable.
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« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2008, 05:04:40 PM »

Gates goes to Iraq and appears to disagree with the CIC. Petraeus will say or do whatever he's told to as the number one sycophant.  Obama and Hillary comment and we know McCain has noted it might end in 100 years.  Make of this what you will, but it continues to be little more than an Alice In Wonderland, well oiled rabbit hole that no one has a clue
about what to do about that continues to, as it has done from "shock and awe" waste both lives and treasure.

'Pause' on U.S. troops from Iraq draws fire

by Frank James

Ever since the surge in Iraq began, national security and other experts have expressed concerns about what would happen to the security gains on the ground in the violence-stricken nature once the surge ended.

Such concerns have evidently led Defense Secretary Robert Gates to conclude it would be better to slow down, or "pause" as he put it today during a visit to Iraq, the withdrawal of the U.S. miltary's surge forces from Iraq.

Here's the top of the Associated Press's report on Gates's statement:

By ROBERT BURNS, AP Military Writer
FORWARD OPERATING BASE FALCON, Iraq (AP) — In a clear sign the drawdown of U.S. forces from Iraq will be suspended, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Monday he favors taking time this summer to assess security gains before more troops leave the country, an idea President Bush is expected to support.

It was Gates' first public endorsement of a possible suspension, and it would seem to mark an end to the Pentagon chief's previously stated hope that conditions in Iraq would permit American troops to withdraw in the second half of this year as rapidly as they are leaving now.

"A brief period of consolidation and evaluation probably does make sense," Gates told reporters during a short stop at this U.S. base in southern Baghdad. He had just finished private meetings with Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, and the No. 2 commander, Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno.

Gates did not say how long the pause might last, noting that it ultimately would be a decision for the president.

In separate remarks, Gates described al-Qaida in Iraq, the insurgent group that U.S. officials say is led by a small number of foreign fighters with links to Osama bin Laden's terrorist network, as having been "routed." That is an unusually strong characterization by Gates of the damage done to al-Qaida, which has been largely pushed out of Baghdad but is still seen by U.S. commanders as a serious threat.

Petraeus and Odierno both have said publicly in recent weeks that they would like to see a "period of assessment" after July in order to get a clearer indication of how troop cuts by then are working. Neither has said for how long.

The logic of a pause, perhaps through September and possibly longer, rests on the fact that the current schedule for troop reductions through July leaves open the possibility that as the Americans leave in increasingly big numbers, security gains — described by Gates Monday as "fragile" — may be eroded or lost...


Gates's comments elicited this response from Sen. Barack Obama's campaign:

"I strongly disagree with the Administration's plans to "pause" the long overdue removal of our combat brigades from Iraq. We cannot wage war without end in Iraq while ignoring mounting costs to our troops and their families, our security and our economy. While the Administration puts our drawdown on permanent pause, bin Laden is on the loose, Afghanistan is sliding toward chaos, and we're spending billions of dollars a week in Baghdad instead of helping Americans who are struggling here at home. Our military leaders are concerned that Iraq is setting back our ability to respond to other priorities, and a Blue Ribbon Panel warned late last month that our National Guard is short of the equipment it needs to address crises at home. Instead of false promises and a faulty strategy, the American people need a rapid and responsible removal of our combat brigades that relieves the burden on our military, pressures the Iraqis to reconcile, and allows us to finally focus on the priorities that George Bush has neglected."

And here's Sen. Hillary Clinton's criticism of Gates's remarks:

“I want to say one other thing, and that is, I was very disheartened to hear Secretary Gates, as reported today, suggest that the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq would not continue at the pace that had been expected.
“This means that we will have as many troops in Iraq in the summer of 2008 as we had at the beginning of 2007. I continue to call on the President to end the war he started, to take responsibly for bringing our young men and women home. I have said repeatedly that there is no military solution, and it's time for the American military to be relieved from the responsibility of refereeing the Iraqi Civil War. It is clear that in the absence of a military solution, which I think this announcement today obviously confirms, the Iraqi government will not take the steps that were expected and even demanded.

“The whole idea behind this so-called surge was to give the Iraqi government the space and time to make the tough decisions that only they can make for themselves and the future of their country. So I will continue to press hard, both in the Congress and on the campaign trail for this President to end this war before he leaves office.

“If that doesn’t happen, then I will immediately, upon taking office, implement the plan that I have put forth to be able to start withdrawing our troops within 60 days, and make it very clear to the Iraqi government that they do not have a blank check. They have to begin to make the decisions that only they can make.”


Posted by Frank James on February 11, 2008 2:10 PM | Permalink

http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/02/idea_of_pause_on_us_troops_fro.html
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« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2008, 10:34:09 PM »

anybody that thinks we are pulling out anytime soon whether its a dem or republican in office are fooling themselves.  With Iran now thinking it can do whatever it wants you can expect us to be there for awhile.  I read an article where Iraq is now accusing Iran of stealing oil so get your popcorn ready.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2008, 10:44:59 PM »

anybody that thinks we are pulling out anytime soon whether its a dem or republican in office are fooling themselves.  With Iran now thinking it can do whatever it wants you can expect us to be there for awhile.  I read an article where Iraq is now accusing Iran of stealing oil so get your popcorn ready.


In a little over a year and a half, except for 50,000 troops; we will be out of Iraq until their army and police are trained. THEN we go POOF! The Israeli's can handle Iran.  Wink


Kind regards
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 11:22:54 PM by Terry Mathis » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2008, 01:46:56 PM »

anybody that thinks we are pulling out anytime soon whether its a dem or republican in office are fooling themselves.  With Iran now thinking it can do whatever it wants you can expect us to be there for awhile.  I read an article where Iraq is now accusing Iran of stealing oil so get your popcorn ready.


In a little over a year and a half, except for 50,000 troops; we will be out of Iraq until their army and police are trained. THEN we go POOF! The Israeli's can handle Iran.  Wink


Kind regards
Terry

A little presumptuous.....in a place that volatile....anything can happen.
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« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2008, 02:00:57 PM »

anybody that thinks we are pulling out anytime soon whether its a dem or republican in office are fooling themselves.  With Iran now thinking it can do whatever it wants you can expect us to be there for awhile.  I read an article where Iraq is now accusing Iran of stealing oil so get your popcorn ready.

Don't worry if it wasn't for this nuclear business the US would still justify to keep the troops in Iraq Grin
Iran's nuclear is just an excuse Wink
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2008, 02:04:03 PM »

anybody that thinks we are pulling out anytime soon whether its a dem or republican in office are fooling themselves.  With Iran now thinking it can do whatever it wants you can expect us to be there for awhile.  I read an article where Iraq is now accusing Iran of stealing oil so get your popcorn ready.


In a little over a year and a half, except for 50,000 troops; we will be out of Iraq until their army and police are trained. THEN we go POOF! The Israeli's can handle Iran.  Wink


Kind regards
Terry

A little presumptuous.....in a place that volatile....anything can happen.


Sure it can, but with the American people wanting out and a likely Democratic government, the U.S. will hang around the least time possible.


-Terry
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« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2008, 02:35:02 PM »

I still insist my first answer on this thread was very correct: it will end badly.  But while some continue to concentrate on the upcoming election, btw, still almost 9 months away, most forget those who were elected with promises to take some valid steps to end this debacle, are busily working their campaigns to get elected or re-elected though they've continued to
do little about complying the those who elected them: that so-called Democratic Congress.

While quite realistically with a lack of veto proof majorities in both Houses, the funding continues as requested for the most part. Even after almost five years since "shock and awe,"
there still appears to be only minimal attention paid to the "will of the people" as the GOP sycophants continue to support the killing fields in lock step, while on the other side of the
aisle, there appears to remain the fear of being called "unpatriotic" while the bodies continue to arrive at Dover AFB in those hidden flag draped coffins, under cover of darkness and the so called "spreading of democracy," touted by all of those purple fingers, the so-called Iraqi government languishes in Emerald City with no agreement on anything other than an Islamic
Constitution.

In the mean time al Sadr's "cease fire" allows Petraeus et al to continue to claim "victory" sort of. 
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« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2008, 03:07:50 PM »

While admittedly I prefer not to get into interminable arguments, but would rather provide information and opinions, I'll toss this one out on this topic as it appears to say it well about
those who continue to support the invasion and occupation of Iraq past the first excuses related to those non-existent WMDs.

Neo-hawks rely on distortion to peddle war-for-democracy
By Pierre Tristam
Created Feb 12 2008 - 9:25am
One of the most persuasive arguments for war in Iraq -- the only argument that still powers the blood-and-bucks guzzler that Iraq and Afghanistan have become -- was put forward by liberals turned neocon apologists. Members of the "I-Can't-Believe-I'm-a-Hawk Club," as New York Times Executive Editor Bill Keller called them (Thomas Friedman, Christopher Hitchens, Paul Berman), saw Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden as a new breed of fascists. Whether one had WMDs or not, whether the two conspired over 9/11 or not, whether American interests were threatened or not wasn't ultimately the reason to go after them. Destroying their totalitarian cult and replacing it with liberal democracy was.

As Friedman put it, he had no regrets for hoping to "remove the genocidal tyranny of Saddam Hussein and replace it with some kind of decent, pluralistic, representative government in the heart of the Arab world." To Berman, the goal of America's wars "is to cause people all over the Muslim world to abandon the cult of mass death and suicide. What would be a complete victory? The rise of liberal societies and liberal ideas." And Hitchens, the neo-hawks' Dr. Phil, argues that Abu Ghraib at its degrading worst under American occupation was "unarguably, the difference between night and day" when compared with what it was before: an "abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp."

Say what you will about the neo-hawks, they can make liberals seem pretty dishonest for chanting democracy over here while tolerating repression over there. They can -- if you buy into their distortions.

Distortion #1: The problem in the Islamic world was the totalitarian regime Saddam imposed, and the totalitarian regime bin Laden wants to impose or Iran has already imposed. It's not the totalitarian (or, in some milder cases, authoritarian) regimes the United States supports, militarily and financially, in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Tunisia, Algeria, Morocco, Bahrain, the United Arab Emirates and that pearl of duplicity, Pakistan. The problem isn't the masses of people in those countries who daily suffer the oppression and corruption of those undemocratic regimes. It's those "terrorists" who would undermine those regimes -- that is, undermine America's proxies.

Distortion #2: It's moral and just to take a stand against oppression. Never mind that there was never a question to invade the Soviet Union when oppression there for half a century was more systematic, brutal and deadly than it ever was in Iraq or Afghanistan, and forget the supreme irony: that containment, not bombs, defeated the Soviets. Never mind that there's no question of spilling blood or bucks in the Congo, where 5 million people, if blacks count as people in America's moral calculus, have died from civil war since the mid-1990s.

Distortion #3: Warring for "some kind of decent, pluralistic, representative government in the heart of the Arab world" in the shadow of American guns is a noble and just mission, and not at all a recasting of a century of Western colonial presumptions the Arab world never asked for then, and doesn't trust now.

On June 15, 1938, The New York Times ran a nearly full-page editorial that took issue with the United States' Neutrality Act in the face of rising fascism in Europe. It was a convincing argument against isolationism and in defense of interventionism, but only in so far as it meant defending the Western, democratic way of life.

The perpetual war express that George Bush began, that John McCain hopes to ride on and that liberal neo-hawks still defend isn't about defending that way of life. It's not even about imposing "liberal societies and liberal ideas" anymore, as governance Iraq and Afghanistan constantly remind us (as I write this, a journalism student in Afghanistan faces the death penalty for downloading and distributing an article questioning why men, but not women, may practice polygamy under Islam). It's about imposing American hegemony by any means necessary.

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/print/12779/
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