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Author Topic: Is Palestine realy under Israeli Occupation?  (Read 537 times)
Peisithanatos
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« on: February 04, 2008, 06:56:22 PM »

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Palestine is an inter-muslim problem

the vintage Fredledingue.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2008, 10:35:02 AM »

Of course it's an inter-muslim problem: If the Hamas and the Fatah were able to rule Palestine together, without shooting at each other, Palestinians would have their own state and a governement to defend their interrest against Israel.
Today nobody has either the authority or the credibility to protect palestinian's rights because of their division.

The lack of economic support to Palestinians from other muslims is also illustrative of inter-muslim divide and ethnocentrism.
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2008, 11:13:46 AM »

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If the Hamas and the Fatah were able to rule Palestine together, without shooting at each other, Palestinians would have their own state

chedevre de jour. They were'nt shooting each other between 1987 and 2007 (but hardly "ruling" anything), and the statehood never arrived. Do u realize it's like occupation over there, direct occupaiton in West Bank and indirect one in Gaza? It's difficult to "rule" yourself when u're under foreign military occupation, but never mind.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2008, 04:37:44 PM »

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If the Hamas and the Fatah were able to rule Palestine together, without shooting at each other, Palestinians would have their own state

chedevre de jour. They were'nt shooting each other between 1987 and 2007 (but hardly "ruling" anything), and the statehood never arrived. Do u realize it's like occupation over there, direct occupaiton in West Bank and indirect one in Gaza? It's difficult to "rule" yourself when u're under foreign military occupation, but never mind.

Palestinian started shooting each others after the death of Arafat. Since his death the Palestinian problem became an inter-muslim problem and the involvement of foreign muslim nations surfaced to daylight.
Arafat was the only one and last Palestinian leader who could talk in the name of all Palestinians, both those who wanted to continue the armed struggle and those who wanted to negociate and at the same time assuming foreing interference.

And the Palestinians are not under Israeli occupation: They have made free elections, and elected the party which program was to make war against Israel forever.
And they got it. Hamas' plan to fire rockets at Israel and resuming suicide bombings put ipso facto, the Palestinian territories under siege, tank incursions and air strikes.
But Israel didn't re-occupied the territories.
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2008, 06:11:42 PM »

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Palestinian started shooting each others after the death of Arafat.

just check the most basic facts before announcing your truths. Depends of course of what "shooting" u're talking of.

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And the Palestinians are not under Israeli occupation: They have made free elections

I'm not aswering this. What's the capital of Bangladesh>?
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2008, 12:28:49 PM »

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Palestinian started shooting each others after the death of Arafat.
just check the most basic facts before announcing your truths. Depends of course of what "shooting" u're talking of.
Maybe there was some clashes among Palstinians beforeArafat's death, but most of these clashes started after his death.
Arafat was an unifying figure for Palestinians who is no more.

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Quote
And the Palestinians are not under Israeli occupation: They have made free elections
I'm not aswering this. What's the capital of Bangladesh>?

No, why should you answer this? It's the truth: Palestinians have held fair and independant elections and voted for Hamas.
Nobody, not even Israel has questionned the validity of these elections.
Israel and the West has always refused to talk with a terrorist organisation, but the Palestinians voted for these terrorists freely and with fairness witnessed by the OSCE monitors.

As you probably know, Palestinians live under the Palestinian Authority, not under a theoritical Israeli occupier authority.

Now, what is the capital of Bolivia?



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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2008, 03:08:18 PM »

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most of these clashes started after his death.

go back check the chonology. Real clashes started 3 years after Arafat's death. When the Abbas-Dahlan clique, with American funding, weapons and training, was trying to usurp all the power. Abbas's mercenaries paid and trained by Americans, the biggest enemies of Palestine, to shoot Palestinians who resist occupation. U can't fall any lower than that.

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It's the truth: Palestinians have held fair and independant elections


and what is the relations between this thesis and the statement there is no Israeli occupation? Israelis loosened the check points control to allow Palestinians to vote. That in now way implies that the checkpoints disappeared. Most of Palestine is under direct military control of Israel, the rest is under Israeli siege. Iraqis had elections, - does that imply there was no American military presence in Iraq? Freddie, stop saying bizarre things. At least make them funny.
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2008, 06:26:17 PM »

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most of these clashes started after his death.

go back check the chonology. Real clashes started 3 years after Arafat's death. When the Abbas-Dahlan clique, with American funding, weapons and training, was trying to usurp all the power. Abbas's mercenaries paid and trained by Americans, the biggest enemies of Palestine, to shoot Palestinians who resist occupation. U can't fall any lower than that.

Quote
It's the truth: Palestinians have held fair and independant elections


and what is the relations between this thesis and the statement there is no Israeli occupation? Israelis loosened the check points control to allow Palestinians to vote. That in now way implies that the checkpoints disappeared. Most of Palestine is under direct military control of Israel, the rest is under Israeli siege. Iraqis had elections, - does that imply there was no American military presence in Iraq? Freddie, stop saying bizarre things. At least make them funny.

I posted a reply in another thread because I did not feel it belong here.  But I had to reply and ask pesi....who do you think is really responsible for the condition in which Gaza is in today?
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 10:51:44 AM »

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most of these clashes started after his death.

go back check the chonology. Real clashes started 3 years after Arafat's death.

The chronology shows that they gradualy came to fight each others after Arafat's death, with the culminating spot when Hamas refused to share power with Fatah a normal democracy would.

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When the Abbas-Dahlan clique, with American funding, weapons and training, was trying to usurp all the power.
Again look at the chronology: Funds specificaly directed to Fatah came long after intestine clashes started. Abbas never tried to usurp the power but was the only one the West would talk with and unlike Hamas, not on a terrorist black list.
When Arafat was still alive the West would talk directly to him and Hamas respected his opinion (to some extents).

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Abbas's mercenaries paid and trained by Americans, the biggest enemies of Palestine, to shoot Palestinians who resist occupation. U can't fall any lower than that.
IMHO, it's not a fall, it's a rise and you can't rise higher than that. Abbas's supporters should be very proud of having called the attention of the americans and succeeded of finaly have the americans (and the europeans) give money to the Palestinians.
But that's a personal opinion of course. An anti-american or a radical islamist would the same view as yours.
You have always complained that the US is giving billions in aid to Israel. Now that Palestinians receive aid, you still complain. You don't know what you want.  Roll Eyes

Hamas is not resisting occupation and Americans are not the biggest ennemies of Palestinians.
I explain:
Hamas is agressing Israel, not for the purpose of stoping Israeli occupation because it has exactely the opposite effect (and they know it). I don't know what they are trying to do, but it's certainly not helping the Palestinian cause.
Then, may I recal you that the Fatah is also an anti-Israeli group, struggling for the creation and recognition of a Palestinian State, in other word for the termination of Israeli occupation and influence over Palestinian areas. Since Hamas is not doing that, Fatah is the only organisation working against Israeli military and official occupation.

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It's the truth: Palestinians have held fair and independant elections

and what is the relations between this thesis and the statement there is no Israeli occupation? Israelis loosened the check points control to allow Palestinians to vote. That in now way implies that the checkpoints disappeared. Most of Palestine is under direct military control of Israel, the rest is under Israeli siege. Iraqis had elections, - does that imply there was no American military presence in Iraq? Freddie, stop saying bizarre things. At least make them funny.
Israel's military presence is limited to check points basicaly there to protect jewish colons and watch jew-only roads to avoid clashes between the two communities. Call it an occupation if you want but there are also some facts which are showing a broad Palestinian independance and self determination.
Palestinians organise their political life and governements as they see fit (even if it doesn't fit for Israel), the population elect their leaders they deem apropriate, pay taxes to the Palestinian Authority (not to Israel), have their own police and don't see any Israeli military in their streets. In other words Israel has no administrative authority over Palestine.



If Israel has some police and military presence there it's only because there is no unified Palestinian forces and no responsible body to cooperate with, save the too weak Fatah militias.
And also because Egypt and Jordan never wanted to anex Gaza and the West Bank.


Palestine is not under siege neither. Only Gaza has been under blockade recently and an easing of this siege is bound to come rapidly. It's a temporary situation directly linked to Hamas activities. The rest of Palestine is fine. 20,000 palestinians still work in Israel proper and even an additional 3,000 found a job in the kibbutz.

Edited off-line with Metapad for easier large text viewing
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 11:35:02 AM »


I think I believe in about 99.9% of what Fred does on this topic.

.. thanks Fred, for saving me all the typing!   Grin


Kind regards
Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does !
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So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 08:36:02 AM »

"who do you think is really responsible for the condition in which Gaza is in today?"

well it depends how far back you want to trace it, lol.


We could say it is the Palestinians who have no central organization, security, or wealth.

Or

We could say it was the U.N. which gave Israel a state where none existed.

Or

We could say it was Hitler for killing so many people and showing the plight that Jews face

Or

We could say it was the Romans for kicking the Jews out of Israel

Or

We could say it was God for inventing people!




We can rationalize "who" is guilty but the plane fact is that there are extremists on all sides that refuse to give an inch for a peacefull resolution. It is everyones fault for the terror and it is everyones fault for the military occupation.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 10:05:59 AM »


It is mostly the Arabs fault for the pox of the Palestinians on the Israeli's. The Arabs hate the Palestinians, and as long as Israel has to deal with it, they don't!  Wink

There has to be a successful negotiation of the Palestinian/Israeli issues very soon, otherwise there will be no Palestine.  Sad


-Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does !
- Will Rogers
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So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman
Peisithanatos
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 05:06:44 PM »

i made a reply and it was classified as spam. probably too long.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 05:28:04 PM »

try to keep the 'http's out. Put in a space or two. We're trying to resolve that problem P.
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