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Author Topic: the crumbling economy  (Read 485 times)
chovy
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« on: September 18, 2007, 10:26:20 PM »

I've heard a lot about the crumbling economy and sub-prime loans...I'm curious how everyone else weighs in on this.
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thief
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2007, 11:07:13 PM »

I am not sure if it is crumbling, Like the dotcom bubble the housing bubble was just the new fad that investors poured all their unrealistic expectations into. I think the Market will take a hit but in general it will be just another economic hiccup. I don't think there will be a drastic rise in unemployment or anything like that, but if someone is a Realtor or mortgage broker they may need to find a new line of work. I think some Banks may go under but it there own stupid fault for giving a 600K mortgage to some who makes 30K a year and has bad credit. The Housing slump is just beginning, IMO. Many of these no conventional loans had teaser rates, where you pay only the interest on your loan for 3-5 years many off these are just starting to reset and will result in foreclosure. As a result the standards to be granted a mortgage is tightening and less people will be able to get mortgages. The banks will just end up with huge amounts of houses sitting unoccupied, the banks are going to have pay the taxes, insurances and upkeep on these properties driving down house prices. In addition a lot of these people can't even sell, I know many people in California refinanced on the equity of their homes to purchase cars, TV, and go on vacation some even bought other investment properties. The problem is now that equity is no existent. They can't raise the rent of their investment properties because renters cannot afford to pay that much. Quick math it takes around 4K a month to pay mortgage on an average house in California. You can rent a 3 bedroom apartment for about 2K. The conventional wisdom is that it is usually cheaper to buy than to rent but that is not the case but a huge factor here in California. People just don't make that much money.
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chovy
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2007, 11:14:23 PM »

that is good to hear, if it is limited to the one industry, won't be as bad...although still felt by others.

I'm curious what you think about selling off mut.funds in realestate/finance sector? I'm probably going to be in it another 30 years overall, so not sure I should sell now, re-invest in something else, or let it ride the storm out.
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thief
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 11:21:44 PM »

IANAI(I Am Not An Investor) but I think it would be too late to sell those now better to ride it out especially if you plan on staying in for the next 30 years. I honestly don't think that sector of the Market will improve for the next 2-3 years maybe a little longer. Look how long it took the tech industry to recover. The ripples from the housing market will effect all companies(and individuals) that have investments in mutual funds especially those funds that are heavily invested in the housing/construction market. But overall I expect the effects to be minimal. As always I expect biotech and tech in general to do well in the upcoming years. I split my 401K 25% in international funds because I believe more international companies will be expanding.
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chovy
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 11:28:41 PM »

I agree...if it were stocks I probably would have bailed out 2 years ago...at least with mutfunds the ride is a little cushier Smiley

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Gojira
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 12:50:08 PM »

Oh yay finally, a discussion on economics!  My speacialty...

All I am going to say is that what our economy should be fearing the most is not the internet bubble, not the savings and loans, not the sub-prime but good ole inflation.  We can thank Bernanke for screwing it up for us by cutting rates.

Sooner or later the dollar will be cheaper to use than toiletpaper.  Imagine using toiletpaper to purchase commodities?  At a rate of 1 roll per dollar combined with the rate of price increase in all commodities, we will be shitting on dollars pretty soon.   Cheesy

Actually it isn't funny, its serious.  Angry  Ok, not Zimbabwe serious but knocks us out of #1 in most powerful economy serious.

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luckyxstar
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2007, 07:36:20 PM »

What?!  Sure, you devalue money when you slash interest rates, but it seems like a move for the moment.  There is no way to satisfy everybody.  Plus, it really depends on if your importing or exporting your goods!  COME ON FIN101! I think the bigger question is why is the FED so focused on interest rates?  They have more tools at there disposal don't they?  Like the money supply?!  Do we need to be reminded of the 14% inflation during the 1970's because of the M1 and M2? 
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Gojira
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2007, 08:29:19 PM »

What?!  Sure, you devalue money when you slash interest rates, but it seems like a move for the moment.  There is no way to satisfy everybody.  Plus, it really depends on if your importing or exporting your goods!  COME ON FIN101! I think the bigger question is why is the FED so focused on interest rates?  They have more tools at there disposal don't they?  Like the money supply?!  Do we need to be reminded of the 14% inflation during the 1970's because of the M1 and M2? 

That move for the moment will only last a month.  Imports or exports has nothing to do with what is going on now in the short-term.  The Fed is focused on interest rates because it influences the amount of growth an economy has and the amount of inflation. 

The Fed has used many tools.  In fact the discount rate hasn't been used in over 20 years, but Bernanke went ahead and used that to help banks bail themselves out if they needed.  Problem is, banks who borrow from the Fed are banks that are in serious trouble.  Setting the reserve requirement ratio is too much government intervention and should only be used for depression like economic conditions. 

That leaves the Fed Funds Target Rate, the favored tool, which effects the amount of money banks loan from each other.  This is done voluntarily and it takes about 3 years for the rates actually to be priced into the market.  Stocks and bonds are up based on expectation, not on real value, however everyone has borrowed in the short term.  Which means extra cash to play with.  More cash means higher prices.  Price level rises.  Wallah, inflation.

The whole thing the Fed should be focusing on is making sure that the 1970s don't happen again by keeping relative certainty of the prediction of inflation.

Come on man, Macroeconomics 101!
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 06:45:01 PM »

From today's BBC News:

Quote
Mortgage woes 'exceed forecasts' 
Ben Bernanke has been applauded for cutting rates
Losses from sub-prime mortgages have far exceeded "even the most pessimistic estimates", US Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke has said.
His comments to a US finance committee come two days after the Fed cut base interest rates to 4.75% from 5.25%.
The rate cut was made "to help forestall some of the adverse effects on the broader economy", he said.
That, along with pumping cash into the financial system, aimed to counter "significant market stress" he said.
Mr Bernanke was appearing before the House Committee on Financial Services.


This bodes ill, I think. The Fed surprised everyone with a larger-than-expected rate cut. Now we know a little more about what was behind their action.
 
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Gojira
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2007, 06:55:24 PM »

No different than a politician.  Bernanke disappointed.
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chovy
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« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2007, 12:01:02 AM »

our continued ride as #1 is not going to be a very long run Smiley
It is rather pathetic actually.
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chovy
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« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2007, 09:17:15 AM »

that was pretty arrogant of me :)D--<
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Baldar
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2007, 09:30:39 PM »

From today's BBC News:

Quote
Mortgage woes 'exceed forecasts' 
Ben Bernanke has been applauded for cutting rates
Losses from sub-prime mortgages have far exceeded "even the most pessimistic estimates", US Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke has said.
His comments to a US finance committee come two days after the Fed cut base interest rates to 4.75% from 5.25%.
The rate cut was made "to help forestall some of the adverse effects on the broader economy", he said.
That, along with pumping cash into the financial system, aimed to counter "significant market stress" he said.
Mr Bernanke was appearing before the House Committee on Financial Services.


This bodes ill, I think. The Fed surprised everyone with a larger-than-expected rate cut. Now we know a little more about what was behind their action.
 

I suppose the rate cut was a surprise to some people, most were not surprised so I am not sure what the problem is.

Do you know what market stress is?
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Baldar
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2007, 09:38:11 PM »

Here is a much clearer article.

Was Bernanke's Rate Cut the Right Decision?
Quote
By Robert Samuelson

It's Ben Bernanke's moment of truth. The Federal Reserve -- the economy's symbolic command center -- has now truly passed to him. Yes, he replaced Alan Greenspan as Fed chairman in early 2006. But until now, Bernanke had faced no crisis and his policies had shadowed Greenspan's. With the Fed's decision last week to cut its key interest rate to 4.75 percent, down half a percentage point, he's on his own. The cut stirred much excitement; global stock markets jumped sharply. But only history will ultimately judge whether he made the right move.

Government central banks have two crucial responsibilities. The first is to control inflation, which can be hugely destabilizing. The rise of U.S. inflation from 1 percent in 1960 to 13 percent in 1979 caused four recessions of increasing severity. The other job is to prevent financial panics. These can devastate confidence and credit flows. Bank runs in the 1930s worsened the Great Depression, when unemployment peaked at 25 percent.

Unfortunately, these tasks can collide. The standard antidote for a bank run (people demanding their money back) is for the Fed to lend liberally to besieged banks so they can repay terrified depositors and quell the fear. But if the Fed is too lax with money and credit, it may feed inflation -- resulting in the proverbial "too much money chasing too few goods." Last week the Fed shifted its emphasis from fighting inflation to preventing panic. Was that the right call?

Certainly it was the popular call. The housing market is imploding; new building permits are at their lowest point since 1995. Fear of recession is in the air. In August, payroll employment dropped. Last week's interest-rate cut could affect some consumer rates: on home-equity loans, for example. But the rate declines aren't large enough to change the first "resets" on adjustable-rate mortgages that had introductory "teaser" rates, says Mark Zandi of Moody's Economy.com. He estimates that almost $900 billion of these mortgages will be reset in 2007 and 2008, with average monthly payments rising from $1,200 to $1,550.

The Fed is trying to prevent a fear-driven breakdown of credit flows: the modern equivalent of a bank run. Through the 1970s, banks dominated the credit system. They were the largest source of business and consumer loans. Now many loans (home mortgages, credit-card debts, auto loans) are "securitized" into bonds that are sold to U.S. and foreign investors: pensions, mutual funds, hedge funds. In 2006, U.S. nongovernment bond issuance totaled $3.8 trillion. But the "subprime" mortgage crisis has traumatized this credit system.

When the subprime mortgages -- loans to weaker borrowers -- began to default in large numbers, so did the bonds into which they'd been packaged. Rattled investors revolted; they stopped buying other securities whose value seemed unclear. Conventional borrowing channels started to shut down. From July to mid-September, outstanding U.S. commercial paper (a type of short-term business loan) dropped by $308 billion, says Brian Bethune of Global Insight. "This credit crunch is one of trust," says economist Roger Kubarych of UniCredit Global Research. "People who had been buying things on trust -- rather than their own due diligence -- went on strike."

Enter the Fed as strikebreaker. In effect, it supplies banks with more credit at a lower cost (aka a lower interest rate). Banks then find it more profitable to increase their lending to fill the vacuum left by skittish investors. Confidence returns.

Sounds sensible, but it could be shortsighted. "The unemployment rate is 4.6 percent. Is that a crisis? Suppose it goes to 5 percent. It's still not a crisis," says economist Allan Meltzer of Carnegie Mellon University. "It sure looks like they're responding to pressures from the markets, from Congress." Implicit in this view is that the economy and financial markets must periodically suffer setbacks. These remind investors to be prudent; they also check price and wage increases. A falling dollar last week (against the euro and the yen) suggests that inflation anxieties are not entirely abstract.

It must be counted in Bernanke's favor that the consumer price index for August showed only a 2 percent increase in prices over the past year. But like much of the information the Fed weighs, this good news came with caveats. The subdued inflation mainly reflected a recent drop of gasoline prices that, with oil hovering around $80 a barrel, could be reversed.

The Fed isn't all-knowing or all-powerful. It operates with limited tools in financial markets that are increasingly complex and globalized. Its actions compete with many others in influencing a nearly $14 trillion economy. Almost everything of importance that it does involves personal judgment. There was a telling symbolism last week. Monday marked the publication of Greenspan's autobiography. On Tuesday, the Fed cut interest rates. An era ended. It's Bernanke's judgments that now matter.

(c) 2007, The Washington Post Writers Group


Subprime loans make up less than 4 percent of the loans in a small segment of a 14 TRILLION dollar economy.

Seems to me the BBC was wrong in its predictions (again).
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