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Author Topic: Islamists & democracy: coexistence  (Read 1260 times)
Shehrazad
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« on: February 08, 2008, 02:04:07 AM »

Because of the rise of islamists parties and popularity in number of ME countries (Turkey, Palestine, Morroco, Jordan, Egypt..), I think it would be helpful and essential to understand islamists view to democracy- indeed the most amazing perspective in political scene is that islamists parties are on top list of those who call to more democratic regims , transparent elections and free press.

In order to understand this challenge, I will post a very interesting article by By Pr Radwan A. Masmoudi, President Center for the Study of Islam and Democracy- Washington DC.

the most important quotes
Quote
Since 2003, the Bush administration, and President Bush in particular, has talked constantly about promoting democracy in the Middle East but has actually done very little to achieve this objective.   The Iraq war notwithstanding – democracy promotion was actually an afterthought in Iraq – U.S. foreign policies continue to support oppressive regimes in the region and reward authoritarian rulers who falsify elections and oppress their people, with more economic and security assistance.  While the ‘hyper-talk’ about democracy promotion initially raised the hopes and expectations of many in the region, it later only served to discredit the intellectuals, leaders, and activists who have been struggling for freedom and democracy for decades.  If we hope to achieve long-term peace, stability, and development in the Middle East, and in the world, we must end our double standards and stop supporting oppressive and illegitimate governments in the Middle East.

There is a serious crisis in the Muslim world, one that has manifested itself in many ways:  from rising levels of poverty and unemployment,  to growing corruption,, and wars.  Terrorism is, of course, the most violent form of this rage and anger, which finds its roots in the terrible conditions that millions of people, especially young people, find themselves in today.

Western and American media pundits increasingly blame Islam for the rising violence in the Middle East, but the reality is that the roots of violence and extremism lie in the despair, anger, frustrations, and humiliation that most Arabs and Muslims feel and which they believe is caused by their corrupt and inefficient governments,

Real democratization requires pressure from inside and out.  Pressure from within at this time is coming mostly from Islamic movements that have the popular support needed to push for reforms in their respective countries, but pressure from the outside is also important to prevent violence and radicalization, and to give hope to millions of people who want an elected, representative and accountable government.

This means that the US must accept and support democracy even if moderate Islamic movements, and not secularists, receive the majority of votes.  Supporting dictators is not only morally wrong, it also undermines peace and stability
With few exceptions, most Arab countries are ruled by a corrupt and secular elite that is benefiting from the status quo.  This elite is afraid of what democracy might bring, so they do everything they can to scare the US and the West of what democracy may bring.  The secular elite is increasingly marginalized, isolated, authoritarian, and corrupt.  They are neither genuine secularists nor democrats, but they raise these flags to seek support from the West.

Secularity was developed in Europe as a reaction to the Church’s control of governments during the Middle Ages.  The Muslim world was never ruled by a religious clergy, with the exception of modern-day Iran where the clerics took control after the Iranian people overthrew the Shah’s oppressive government.  Complete separation between religious values and politics is impossible in the Muslim world, while separation between religious and political institutions is necessary.[/u]

How to engage and support Moderate Islamists?

What does “Islamist” mean and what do Islamic movements stand for?  While extremist and radical fringe groups exist, the overwhelming majority of those who call themselves “Islamists” reject violence and theocracy, and simply want to reform their societies based on Islamic values of justice, equality, and accountability. In short, they want a democratic form of government that respects Islamic values without imposing them on citizens or on society.

Moderate Islamic movements today range from the Justice and Development Parties in Turkey and Morocco, to the reform Islah or Wasat parties in Kuwait, Yemen, and Jordan.  Prominent moderate Islamist leaders include Anwar Ibrahim in Malaysia, Saadeddine al-Othmani in Morocco, and Abdulwaheed in Indonesia.  A Gallup Poll conducted in 2006 in ten Muslim-majority countries showed that the overwhelming majority (between than 70-90% in Egypt and Pakistan) want a democratic government, but also want Shari’ah (Islamic law) to be either the main or the only source of legislation in their countries.  This means that they want a democracy governed by Islamic principles, and they reject both theocracy and secular democracy. The majority wants “religious leaders” to be advisors to the lawmakers, and not become lawmakers or politicians themselves.

One of the main challenges for democracy in the Arab and Muslim world is the growing popularity of Islamic movements and/or political Islam, and the relative weakness of secular groups and movements.  The concern that many people have is that Islamist movements will not respect democracy and abide by its rules, if and when they come to power. It is important to remember that the support Islamist parties enjoy today did not exist 20 or 30 years ago and is clearly the result of the despair and hopelessness to which these failed states have led their populations.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 07:06:27 AM by Shehrazad » Logged

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yilmaz101
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2008, 02:50:06 AM »

That picture in the post, for those who don't know, is of Dr. Abdullah GUL (he is a PhD Economist) the President of Turkish Republic, and his wife (that'd make her our firstlady I suppose) Hayrunisa GUL. He was a democratically elected MP for a couple of terms and served for a very short term as PM, after which he stepped down in favor of the current PM Tayyip ERDOGAN, himself becoming the minister of foreign affairs. He was elected president in August...

So far I am pretty happy with their policies and politics, especially foreign policy in regards to Iraq and the EU.
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kactus
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2008, 03:12:26 AM »

Personally, I think Recep Tayyip Erdogan has done a much better job than Bulent Ecevit from the economics as well as the foreign policy perspectives. The fact that you can never please everyone especially for a country that is so multifaceted between different factions each pulling their own strings, the generals, clerics, secularists, etc... remains a big challenge for Turkey.
This coupled with decisions made on foreign policy for example the stance that Turkey took against the american invasion of Iraq/ issues concerning the EU membership/ the Nato and PKK seperatists further complicates the matter for your government. Nevertheless I think Erdogan was the right choice and has done a fairly decent job.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2008, 03:38:08 AM »

The title of the thread is in fact an oxymoron. Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders. Islamists sole goal, whether they admit it or not, is to take over the West. Turkey though a secular society, does have a majority of Islamists running the show. That is a fact.

The very fact that Untouchables started this should be a tip off that he wanted a contentious and devisive topic. I have absolutely no problems with moderate muslims, indeed, my families best mates are moderate muslims who say the Islamists are 'crazy'.  Wink

This thread is Psyops at its best and should be treated with a big grain of sand..

-Terry

Oh! Flame all you want, but reality bites, and hard.  Wink
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 03:54:49 AM by Terry Mathis » Logged

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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2008, 04:00:27 AM »

Quote
Western and American media pundits increasingly blame Islam for the rising violence in the Middle East, but the reality is that the roots of violence and extremism lie in the despair, anger, frustrations, and humiliation that most Arabs and Muslims feel and which they believe is caused by their corrupt and inefficient governments,

Corrupt and inefficent governments are more common than uncommon throughout the world IMO, but do not result in the same level of violence as what happens in the ME.

Generally i think the article is a good one and makes some good points but on certain points it is too simplistic and seems like it is excusing islam rather than making an honest assessment.I am not saying that islam = violence. But I think the article could delve a bit more into the reasons for the violence in the ME.


 
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2008, 04:13:39 AM »

Islamists and Jihadists, or radical Islamists are two different categories. The moderate Islamists want a democratic system where the Islamic identity (or as some call it in Turkey, cultural Islam) is reflected in social norms and systems. As secularism or western style democracy is inherently grounded in the Judeo-Christian experience and tradition it does not work very well in Muslim societies. The radicals on the other hand are the ones that want to turn the clock back to about the 11th-12th century. Trust me they are not interested in the 8th century because that time period is too liberal for their liking. Those are the crazy ones, not the likes of AKP in Turkey. The issues that moderate Islamists have center mainly on women's right to chose how they dress, they are not interested in forcing the hijab but leaving it up to the individual. They are not interested in forced conversions of all other religious minorities but religious tolerance towards all religious beliefs (including minority sects of Islam itself). That by far is what AKP seems to be trying in Turkey. They are proposing liberal legislation concerning religious institutions (including the Greek Orthodox Theology School (that's not what it is named though) in Istanbul) and foundations.

And yes Terry, we all know that your family is best friends with an Egyptian couple who thinks all Islamists are crazy. But unfortunately that is what you in the west tend to call any moderate Muslims who come forth with political demands of any kind.......
The title of the thread is in fact an oxymoron. Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders. Islamists sole goal, whether they admit it or not, is to take over the West. Turkey though a secular society, does have a majority of Islamists running the show. That is a fact.

The very fact that Untouchables started this should be a tip off that he wanted a contentious and devisive topic. I have absolutely no problems with moderate muslims, indeed, my families best mates are moderate muslims who say the Islamists are 'crazy'.  Wink

This thread is Psyops at its best and should be treated with a big grain of sand..

-Terry

Oh! Flame all you want, but reality bites, and hard.  Wink
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2008, 04:21:18 AM »

Islamists and Jihadists, or radical Islamists are two different categories. The moderate Islamists want a democratic system where the Islamic identity (or as some call it in Turkey, cultural Islam) is reflected in social norms and systems. As secularism or western style democracy is inherently grounded in the Judeo-Christian experience and tradition it does not work very well in Muslim societies. The radicals on the other hand are the ones that want to turn the clock back to about the 11th-12th century. Trust me they are not interested in the 8th century because that time period is too liberal for their liking. Those are the crazy ones, not the likes of AKP in Turkey. The issues that moderate Islamists have center mainly on women's right to chose how they dress, they are not interested in forcing the hijab but leaving it up to the individual. They are not interested in forced conversions of all other religious minorities but religious tolerance towards all religious beliefs (including minority sects of Islam itself). That by far is what AKP seems to be trying in Turkey. They are proposing liberal legislation concerning religious institutions (including the Greek Orthodox Theology School (that's not what it is named though) in Istanbul) and foundations.

And yes Terry, we all know that your family is best friends with an Egyptian couple who thinks all Islamists are crazy. But unfortunately that is what you in the west tend to call any moderate Muslims who come forth with political demands of any kind.......
The title of the thread is in fact an oxymoron. Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders. Islamists sole goal, whether they admit it or not, is to take over the West. Turkey though a secular society, does have a majority of Islamists running the show. That is a fact.

The very fact that Untouchables started this should be a tip off that he wanted a contentious and devisive topic. I have absolutely no problems with moderate muslims, indeed, my families best mates are moderate muslims who say the Islamists are 'crazy'.  Wink

This thread is Psyops at its best and should be treated with a big grain of sand..

-Terry

Oh! Flame all you want, but reality bites, and hard.  Wink


I quite agree with everything you say in your post EXCEPT the last paragraph. You don't know me, my family, or my way of thinking. You just guess and make it sound negative. But hey, that doesn't bother me one bit. Nor would it any Aussie, as we are all independent and right at you!  Cheesy

Regards
Terry

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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does !
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- Shulman
yilmaz101
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2008, 04:37:08 AM »

The first sentence in the last paragraph is a tounge in cheek comment about a fact that you have mentioned many times. The second sentence of that paragraph, I just have to reitirate.....

Islamists and Jihadists, or radical Islamists are two different categories. The moderate Islamists want a democratic system where the Islamic identity (or as some call it in Turkey, cultural Islam) is reflected in social norms and systems. As secularism or western style democracy is inherently grounded in the Judeo-Christian experience and tradition it does not work very well in Muslim societies. The radicals on the other hand are the ones that want to turn the clock back to about the 11th-12th century. Trust me they are not interested in the 8th century because that time period is too liberal for their liking. Those are the crazy ones, not the likes of AKP in Turkey. The issues that moderate Islamists have center mainly on women's right to chose how they dress, they are not interested in forcing the hijab but leaving it up to the individual. They are not interested in forced conversions of all other religious minorities but religious tolerance towards all religious beliefs (including minority sects of Islam itself). That by far is what AKP seems to be trying in Turkey. They are proposing liberal legislation concerning religious institutions (including the Greek Orthodox Theology School (that's not what it is named though) in Istanbul) and foundations.

And yes Terry, we all know that your family is best friends with an Egyptian couple who thinks all Islamists are crazy. But unfortunately that is what you in the west tend to call any moderate Muslims who come forth with political demands of any kind.......
The title of the thread is in fact an oxymoron. Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders. Islamists sole goal, whether they admit it or not, is to take over the West. Turkey though a secular society, does have a majority of Islamists running the show. That is a fact.

The very fact that Untouchables started this should be a tip off that he wanted a contentious and devisive topic. I have absolutely no problems with moderate muslims, indeed, my families best mates are moderate muslims who say the Islamists are 'crazy'.  Wink

This thread is Psyops at its best and should be treated with a big grain of sand..

-Terry

Oh! Flame all you want, but reality bites, and hard.  Wink


I quite agree with everything you say in your post EXCEPT the last paragraph. You don't know me, my family, or my way of thinking. You just guess and make it sound negative. But hey, that doesn't bother me one bit. Nor would it any Aussie, as we are all independent and right at you!  Cheesy

Regards
Terry


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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2008, 04:44:22 AM »



And you still don't understand, do you yilmaz?
.. no big deal. I don't trust the Mid-East, it has brought misery upon itself willingly, and to others, unwillingly.  Wink
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does !
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Shehrazad
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2008, 06:59:23 AM »

Quote
But I think the article could delve a bit more into the reasons for the violence in the ME.

what kind of reasons?!- if you would get just elected regims 'not elected by the west like Mubarek", no torture and free speech - none would think to terrorize the other.

Terry Mathis
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The title of the thread is in fact an oxymoron. Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders

Because you are suckled with one source propaganda, your mind is unable to differenciate between islamists and terrorists. islamists is a modern term which refer to people who aim to set moral laws through democratic mechanism and without violence.

terrosrists are counted on fingers among islamists, and refuse any political discussion or entering any parliament.
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Shehrazad
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« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2008, 07:05:56 AM »

I forget to mention that unlike church, Islamic rules are able to run a mixed society faith- despite it's not always a good example, Iran get jews and christians in parliament.
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« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2008, 08:30:13 AM »

It is valid to point out that vast majority of Islamists are average people that want to free themselves from Dictatorship. These totalitarian regiemes are supported by the west (and Russia) and the people of the Middle East are resisting. Islamists are the same as Evangelicals, they both pose some threat to secular democracy but they do not oppose democracy itself.



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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2008, 09:51:08 AM »


Terry Mathis
Quote
The title of the thread is in fact an oxymoron. Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders

Because you are suckled with one source propaganda, your mind is unable to differenciate between islamists and terrorists. islamists is a modern term which refer to people who aim to set moral laws through democratic mechanism and without violence.

terrosrists are counted on fingers among islamists, and refuse any political discussion or entering any parliament.


Untouchables, I 'suckle' from many different sources. East, West, North, South and wherever. The problem comes in when people try to define "Islamist". I see Islam three ways at the least, Moderate Islamists, Radical Islamists, and Moderate Muslims.

Terrorists can come from any of the above. Radical, and to a certain extent all Islamists are 'moulded by the Wahabi sect and the average Muslim majority cannot (so far) shake loose their bonds of hatred and strict Sharia law. Speaking of terrorists, there are many, not just  "terrosrists are counted on fingers".

You yourself are a terrorist, preaching hatred and bigotry against another race (the jews). It wouldn't surprise me UT if you cannot roll twenty marbles in the same direction..  Grin

This thread is divisive and doesn't help in the West understanding the East, or vice versa. It does attempt to put blame on the West for not succumbing to the Mid-East whining about the West and how we are responsible for all the problems there.

You have created your own home grown problems without any outside 'help'. Why can't you deal with it?


-Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does !
- Will Rogers
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So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 10:54:35 AM »

Muslim populations believe that as Islam is good so must be an islamist governement.
It's not clear however what change their regime need to fit the moderate islamic program.



Unfortunately muslims look at it very superficialy.
They believe that an islamic politician, because he follows the Quran, will forcibly not be corrupt and will generousely make everyone happy. Roll Eyes
They don't understand that corruption is at the core of their social system and that a new wave of politicians calling themselves islamists won't change that.

Another mistake is to think that the West support any dictature which is anti-islamic no matter what and that any anti-islamic governement will recieve our support and that any islamic ones will face economical restrictions.
That's completely wrong. Just see who the West supported or attacked in the last 15 years.

Another mistake is to think that corrupt governements are working same as ours but fail because of cultural differences. No, failed economies of corrupt muslim countries have in no point a similar political model to ours, in the West.
But nothing prevent them to do like we do.



Another mistake is to think that if a governement recieve financial support from the US, it's corrupt and those who don't are not corrupt. Corruption is not recieve funds through official chanels.



It's sad to see that the Iranian example is not enough for muslims to beware of these illusions and that they will have to live it through and learn it the hard way to understand. So is the mankind.


« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 04:00:43 PM by Fredledingue » Logged

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Jabato
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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 03:06:58 PM »

Terry wrote:
Islamists are not democratic, do not have a free press, nor do they give women the same privileges as the men or any outsiders.


Folks, what Terry says is absolutely out of any question. It is not an opinion, it is a fact.

Terry wrote:
Islamists sole goal, whether they admit it or not, is to take over the West
.

IMO because they wrongly believe WE are the one to blame regarding their situation and we are not. The problem is that Europe also believe that WE are somehow guilty too and we definitely are not either.


Terry wrote:
I have absolutely no problems with moderate muslims,


Neither do I, but for sure -and this is one more fact IMO- I have never seen them when their opinion was required.

Yilmaz101 wrote:
As secularism or western style democracy is inherently grounded in the Judeo-Christian experience and tradition it does not work very well in Muslim societies.


This is another fact, also out of any debate and I agree with you. The Muslim experience and tradition does not work very well in Judeo-Christian societies either.
At school I learnt that in Spain, in the Middle Ages, muslims, Cristian's and Jews used to live.......... "happy together" in what I always knew as the España de las Tres Culturas. I was told that, you know "life was good among us because we did understand each others belief and we also respected it and they did the same with us"
It was not true. They all lived separate from each other Muslims used to live in muslims neighbourhoods, apart from Christians neighbourhoods and Jews also in their own neighbourhoods. Fights among them..................very often.

Saludos
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 03:09:08 PM by Jabato » Logged
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