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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2008, 05:05:07 PM » |
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Islamists appeal to democratic principles because they are on the receiving end of the pro-US tyranines. They have an interest in democracy as a tool to depose pro-US dictators, but only insofar as they are in opposition. There will always be a conflict between the idea of the people as the source of truth, and the idea of a Scripture as the source of truth. If u believe in a Scripture, what ever it is, the idea of allowing the carnal vulgar mob to overrule the Truth of the Scripture through a popular vote is absurd. The final and ultimate truth has already been revealed through the Word of God, - what remains is interpretation. And u don't want an illiterate roughneck obsessed with carnal pleasures and entertainment to have the authority to elicit the truth from the sacred text. For that, u surely need men (of course men) with decades of humble study of the Word of God. Ochlocracy vs. the rule of the wise.
And yet, the Islamists have de facto been the democratizing force in the Muslim world because they simply had to appeal to the people as an ally against secular dictators. The Islamists are the ones who instituted representative rule and collective decision-making (how ever restricted) in place of monarchy in Iran. They argue for the same in KSA, Jordan, Morocco. But i wouldn't expect them to retain their democratic impulses once they are in power.
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2008, 12:54:16 AM » |
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Terry MathisI see Islam three ways at the least, Moderate Islamists, Radical Islamists, and Moderate Muslims.
I think it's similar to other religions too- in christianism you can find extremists like neocons ( Bush team and their bloody godfather Pat Robertson), moderate christians like conservators in Germany, radicals as Catholics IRA...etc Terrorists can come from any of the above. Radical, and to a certain extent all Islamists are 'moulded by the Wahabi sect and the average Muslim majority cannot (so far) shake loose their bonds of hatred and strict Sharia law. How the moderate majorities could be terrorists?!!! Wahhabis are not sect, they are reformists sunnite school who preach to pure monotheism- their official jurists reject violence and they have issued tens of publications in the subject. However their percentage doesn't exceed 10% and terrorists are pretending to be from them. You yourself are a terrorist, preaching hatred and bigotry against another race (the jews) You are not exagerating here?! well, you are older than me, I wouldn't be impolite with you like Jane did! It does attempt to put blame on the West for not succumbing to the Mid-East whining about the West and how we are responsible for all the problems there. US is not responsible for all problems, I agree- but they are responsible in their supporting dictatorship regims in the region which is the most important obstacle toward free elections and democracy.
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2008, 01:09:51 AM » |
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PeisithanatosAnd yet, the Islamists have de facto been the democratizing force in the Muslim world because they simply had to appeal to the people as an ally against secular dictators. The Islamists are the ones who instituted representative rule and collective decision-making (how ever restricted) in place of monarchy in Iran. They argue for the same in KSA, Jordan, Morocco. But i wouldn't expect them to retain their democratic impulses once they are in power. Democracy is compatible with islamic politic teachings- the only point Which is not acceptable for them is "immoral" parties entering politic life, like the PPP (prostitute popular party) in Canada . legislations aimed by islamists are counted on fingers, free press which critic govt is essential, woman in work and politic life should be guaranted too. I think the modern experience of turkish islamists like Ardugan/Gul, is good example that state their ability to make change- juste compare the deep politic economic crisis of 90's with Ardugan era where GDP/citizen has reached a new record. Fred, I won't reply you- just continue your war/bashing against ONE religion and your cartoonic topics. Bravo you are achieving a very good moronic work- especialy the "out of context" images...
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 01:24:41 AM by Shehrazad »
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Terry Mathis
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Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2008, 06:52:27 AM » |
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Untouchables, there is nothing democratic about Islam. Never was and never will be. Not as long as there are radical Islamists and Sharia law..
-Terry
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2008, 12:23:01 PM » |
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I think it's similar to other religions too- in christianism you can find extremists like neocons ( Bush team and their bloody godfather Pat Robertson), moderate christians like conservators in Germany, radicals as Catholics IRA...etc Yes, we do have radicals, but they are not a growing force and not a political weight of any sort. Christian radicals make less than 0.001% of our population. ]the US are responsible in their supporting dictatorship regims in the region which is the most important obstacle toward free elections and democracy. Please elaborate: Which dictatorship the US support and which country have a chance of regime change should this support be dropped? As long as a country remains pro-US, nothing forbid them to be democratic and even islamist. But an anti-US democracy or a democraticaly elected anti-US regime (which is different) would certainly face pressure from the US and see its oponents supported by the US. I don't think the US plays a role in the will of muslim politicians to respect or not democratic processes. If a muslim politician said clearly "We want a democracy based on Islamism but we also want to be allies of the US", don't worry the US will suport them. SherazadI tried to explain why political islam or islamism is an illusion and that politicians are politicians, islamist or not. And they are all the same. A politician won't rule by a pure hearth because he is an islamist and pretend to follow the good things in the Quran. But many muslims naively believe so. Muslim believe that if someone is islamist it's forcibly a good person because in Islamism there is the word Islam. Unfortunately that's not true. That would be too simple. My cartoonish pictures at the end, illustrate what happens in an islamist society: On one side the poor pious muslims who pray and hope and on the other side the Emir or the Supreme Leader or whatever you call him who gets all the wealth and pleasures. But because he wears a turban and a long beard, muslims keep on revering him without asking question. The only difference with Sadam's sons is that the latters didn't pose as prophet to camouflage their evil actions. Debate it only if you want. |
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« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 12:28:37 PM by Fredledingue »
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2008, 02:02:41 AM » |
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Yes, we do have radicals, but they are not a growing force and not a political weight of any sort.
Christian radicals make less than 0.001% of our population.
seems that you mean that Al Qaeda has political weight and represent 10% of the Muslim population!!!?- and as we know that all attacks and radical behaviours are linked to Al-Qaeda according to WH. IRA/Sinn Fein-JDL-Pat Robertson-neocons and other clowns have no political weight?!  i won't state the evident, just compare the evangelical Neocons war victims to Al-Qaeda victims- you may deduce something.I tried to explain why political islam or islamism is an illusion and that politicians are politicians, islamist or not. And they are all the same. wake up goon!- political Islam is existing and running the govt in Turkey/ Morocco/Malaysia...- Your limited mind and vision still focus on one point. (taliban and Al-Qaeda..). Please elaborate: Which dictatorship the US support and which country have a chance of regime change should this support be dropped? Egypt regime are receiving the most important trash money, just to securize the borders with Gaza, maintaining relationships with izraelis, and alerting status! Shah and Saddam in the past are also famous examples. I don't think the US plays a role in the will of muslim politicians to respect or not democratic processes.
If a muslim politician said clearly "We want a democracy based on Islamism but we also want to be allies of the US", don't worry the US will suport them.
 How old are you man?! A politician won't rule by a pure hearth because he is an islamist and pretend to follow the good things in the Quran. But many muslims naively believe so.
Muslim believe that if someone is islamist it's forcibly a good person because in Islamism there is the word Islam. Unfortunately that's not true. That would be too simple. None said that an islamist politician is above critic, a parliament is here to judge him!- Najad seems that he would piss off next elections, because he is seriously criticized by reformists for foreign policy and economic results. |
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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machioveli
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2008, 03:52:53 AM » |
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Terry MathisI see Islam three ways at the least, Moderate Islamists, Radical Islamists, and Moderate Muslims.
I think it's similar to other religions too- in christianism you can find extremists like neocons ( Bush team and their bloody godfather Pat Robertson), moderate christians like conservators in Germany, radicals as Catholics IRA...etc If Bush was the equvalent of a Islamic extremists trying to spread Christianity, trust me the Muslim world would be screaming for mercy right now. I don't think he even believes in Christianity but uses it for political reasons but thats another story. |
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kactus
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2008, 06:14:54 AM » |
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Terry MathisI see Islam three ways at the least, Moderate Islamists, Radical Islamists, and Moderate Muslims.
I think it's similar to other religions too- in christianism you can find extremists like neocons ( Bush team and their bloody godfather Pat Robertson), moderate christians like conservators in Germany, radicals as Catholics IRA...etc If Bush was the equvalent of a Islamic extremists trying to spread Christianity, trust me the Muslim world would be screaming for mercy right now. I don't think he even believes in Christianity but uses it for political reasons but thats another story. Machioveli, There aren't many points we tend to agree! This is one of those issues that I do agree with you to a certain extent. Although Bush may not want to spread christianity (which btw such responsibility resides with the catholic church in Rome) but the problem with presidents like him and Ahmadienejad is that they both see religion as a pretext to spread their ideologie and that IMHO is the root cause of the problem. Afterall, it was Bush in one of his infamous speeches when he said god is on our side and is portraying islam as an evil religion outright! Ahmadienejad also tends to make such speeches, which gives extremists on both sides the opportunity for propaganda! |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2008, 11:29:44 AM » |
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Evangelicals and cathos are raising billions to convert people around the world. I think Nor Bush nor muslim terrorists want to spread their religions, religion wouldn't be spread by killings and war. it's ALL politics.. Islam doesn't need Najad to be spread, Germany has a high rate of islam conversion despite no war or terror is seen there. However we have to note: Of the major religious groups in the United States, evangelical Christians are the biggest backers of Israel and Washington's planned war against Iraq, says a new survey released here Wednesday by a politically potent group of fundamentalist Christians and Jews. Some 69 percent of conservative Christians favor military action against Baghdad; 10 percentage points more than the U.S. adult population as a whole. And almost two-thirds of evangelical Christians say they support Israeli http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1010-02.htm |
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2008, 11:39:32 AM » |
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i don't think Bush wants to spread Christianity or freedom or ketchup or anything. I don't think Bush has any interest whatsoever in the world. He is the most pure type of American isolationist, - by his intrinsic instincts. He just doesn't give a crap. It's just he was put on the path into the White House by his life situation. And then he got under influence of much more sophisticated Middle East-oriented folks like Cheney, Perle, Rumsfleld, Wolfowitz, Abrams, etc. And when they started digging him with their megalomanic desings, Bush's quintessential constituency of Evangelicals joined the venture. So Bush found himself pressed from both sides, - the neocons and the paleocons. And the dude basically said "Whatever. I thought they were Muslims in Iraq, but now u say they're Shiites, and that sounds funny, but who the fuck cares. Let's go kick some ass if u so insist."
That's what happens when dynasticism overtakes democratic politics. History of royal houses shows that the monarchical throne is often occupied by clueless disinterested folks with neither aptitude nor desire for state and foreign affairs.
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Jericoacoara
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Fortaleza IAP 1.0
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2008, 01:52:00 PM » |
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Islam doesn't need Najad to be spread, Germany has a high rate of islam conversion despite no war or terror is seen there.
Al-Qaeda is targeting potential recruits in Germany through the Internet, the government said, confirming a newspaper report that militant Islamists may be planning a terrorist attack in Germany.
German intelligence services have observed an increase in the number of German-language Internet sites that promote al- Qaeda, including video sites with German subtitles, a government spokesman told a news conference in Berlin today.
The sites focus on recruitment of potential volunteers, spreading a radical message and providing technical information such as bomb-making instructions, the government said. Germany is increasingly in the sights of al-Qaeda, it said.
Al-Qaeda fighters in southern Afghanistan are recruiting young Muslims from Germany to train them in terror camps and send them back to the country http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=aIZeyzIRTpi8&refer=germanyBTW Untouchables you are 100% correct(first time for everything  )about Germany's high conversion to islam. However IMO, that is more to do with personal self identity issues of some of the german population rather than any specific selling point of islam. |
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 01:55:45 PM by Jericoacoara »
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The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2008, 12:22:44 AM » |
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mmm, sounds like great source bloomBERG, and so what? "Some parasites presumed to recruit muslims from Germany"!!; are they recruiting them in order to spread Islam in Germany?!! don't be rediculous In the other hand, let's see the fact of tens of of christian missionaries in Iraq/Afghanistan -the hidden army- If only missionaries didn’t see Iraq as fertile groundLet me say two things at the outset: I realize why Christian missionaries seek converts and I respect their right to pursue that goal. That said, I’m terribly concerned about missionaries’ efforts in Iraq. The Washington Post had an interesting item in yesterday’s paper about thousands of missionaries rushing into Iraq to convince Muslims to embrace Christianity. The evangelists aren’t literally going door to door, but they’re working their way into the country to spread the gospel, as they see it. http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/1781.html was not Bush saying : "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile."  |
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 12:27:55 AM by Shehrazad »
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Jericoacoara
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Fortaleza IAP 1.0
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2008, 01:21:28 AM » |
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mmm, sounds like great source bloomBERG Personally, I have found it more reliable than iamthewitness,jewwatch and david duke. "Some parasites presumed to recruit muslims from Germany"!!; are they recruiting them in order to spread Islam in Germany?!! don't be rediculous They recruit from Germany because Germany is a fertile ground for white islam converts, who are much harder to detect and profile by international security agencies when preventing terrorist attacks. Germany has for a long time been the country for tolerance and islam friendly due to feeling guilty over their terrible world war 2 human rights crimes. This over tolerance is now catching up with them. Berlin - Police have identified four men from Germany who are undergoing training in terrorist-run camps in the lawless border region between Afghanistan and Pakistan, the German magazine Der Spiegel said Saturday. Federal police were trying to prevent the Islamists returning to Germany for fear they would mount attacks.
It said the list included a 20-year-old ethnic German convert to Islam and a 23-year-old ethnic Lebanese who is stateless. Both flew via Iran to the border region at the end of last year.
They were thought to be members of the Islamic Jihad Union, a violent group said to have been foiled last year in a plot to bomb a US base in Germany.
Also believed to be in training were an ethnic German aged 25 who had written a farewell letter to his family and a man aged 28 from Bavaria state who had given away all his furniture and disappeared into Pakistan.
On Friday, German authorities warned that radical Islamists were actively plotting attacks in Germany http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/184763,police-said-to-identify-four-germans-in-terrorist-camps.htmlIn the other hand, let's see the fact of tens of of christian missionaries in Iraq/Afghanistan -the hidden army-
If only missionaries didn’t see Iraq as fertile ground Thats fair comment. No country likes foreigners trying to push their religion on them. How about the west withdraw all their missionairies and you withdraw all your islamic preachers from the west? Seems like a fair deal to me. After all, it was your article that pointed out how most middle eastern treat christian missionaries. Post Script: One last thought. Who wants to imagine how the new, post-June 30 government will look on thousands of Christian evangelists in their country? Here’s a guess: It will do what most Middle Eastern countries have done — ban them. was not Bush saying : "this crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take awhile." Nice cartoon! Especially from someone who said they wouldn't reply to Fred because he was posting cartoons in his posts. Talking about Bush/Oil cartoons, whatever happened to Winston Smith? |
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« Last Edit: February 11, 2008, 01:36:15 AM by Jericoacoara »
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The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2008, 02:02:19 AM » |
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Jeri, Winston must have gotten tired of fighting ALL the neocons on the boards! -Terry |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2008, 04:12:40 AM » |
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They recruit from Germany because Germany is a fertile ground for white islam converts, who are much harder to detect and profile by international security agencies when preventing terrorist attacks.
Germany has for a long time been the country for tolerance and islam friendly due to feeling guilty over their terrible world war 2 human rights crimes. This over tolerance is now catching up with them. Well, this thread is about political Islam -or islamist parties in the scene- it's not about Al-Qaeda clowns. I see that any discussion here can't get over from alqaeda. What's Al-Qaeda? do they get any political weight or political party? 5, 6;10 parasites caught..so what? -do you know the number of muslims in Germany? so what? alqaeda want spreading islam in Germany!!!!- don't be absurd. You need refresh memory, don't forget that most AlQaeda victims are muslims  Thats fair comment. No country likes foreigners trying to push their religion on them. How about the west withdraw all their missionairies and you withdraw all your islamic preachers from the west? Seems like a fair deal to me.
After all, it was your article that pointed out how most middle eastern treat christian missionaries Yep you play the ignorant, Those thousands of missioners are EVANGELISTS not cathos or orthodoxes, THEY ENTERING Iraq and Afghanistan with Bush's warriors as hidden army. they play on citizens sentiments and needs (money, visas, immigration...etc). Why they wouldn't go to the atheist Europe to achieve their agenda. ? |
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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