Warr_E_Er
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Posts: 49
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« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2008, 04:11:02 PM » |
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If then everything is determined, even on the atomic level to a degree, then does free will exist? Does the consciousness we take for granted really exist, is it an illusion, or do we need to rethink exactly what it is we have "will" over?
Depends. Are you a materialist or a dualist? Dualism refers to a seperation of the mind and the body (ghost in a machine, if you will). If the mind regresses purely to physical states, then I would say no, there is no free will (at least as we define it). However, if there is such a dichotomy, then free will is possible. In my case, I am a borderline cartesian dualist. Interestingly, being a dualist doesn't actually get you off the deterministic hook. After all, dualists (god bless them) seem to believe that their non-material 'selves' can causes physical events (in some way, undefined). Yet if you follow this into the wild woods of theism, these 'selves' are themselves totally constrained in what they can or cannot do - in the 'afterlife' (or 'beforelife', or wherever). Just a nonsense incoherent position. 1. I don't think I tried to get off of the 'deterministic hook' 2. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to the question 'is determinism falsifiable?' or are you just trolling? |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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Callum
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« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2008, 12:24:24 PM » |
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If then everything is determined, even on the atomic level to a degree, then does free will exist? Does the consciousness we take for granted really exist, is it an illusion, or do we need to rethink exactly what it is we have "will" over?
Depends. Are you a materialist or a dualist? Dualism refers to a seperation of the mind and the body (ghost in a machine, if you will). If the mind regresses purely to physical states, then I would say no, there is no free will (at least as we define it). However, if there is such a dichotomy, then free will is possible. In my case, I am a borderline cartesian dualist. Interestingly, being a dualist doesn't actually get you off the deterministic hook. After all, dualists (god bless them) seem to believe that their non-material 'selves' can causes physical events (in some way, undefined). Yet if you follow this into the wild woods of theism, these 'selves' are themselves totally constrained in what they can or cannot do - in the 'afterlife' (or 'beforelife', or wherever). Just a nonsense incoherent position. 1. I don't think I tried to get off of the 'deterministic hook' 2. Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to the question 'is determinism falsifiable?' or are you just trolling? WADR (little in this case) I was replying to your digression on free will. Maybe you shouldn't troll impoverished notions like "borderline cartesian dualism" whatever that may be, and invite responses you might not like. However, if you want a reply to your misconceived question.... determinism is a metaphysical notion. There can be no empirical evidence to falsify it, among other reasons because you would be trying to 'prove a negative'. The question as such is therefore a non-question. We can put up other concepts notions or theories that claim better fit with our observations of the world - just as determinism itself is plainly a better explanation than dualism and its spawn (theism, witchcraft, fairies, etc). Some may cite QM as a model that would be superior to determinism (and QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable, but evaluable as an explanation): this remains to be fully argued. |
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IamMe
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2008, 12:38:54 PM » |
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QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable
I disagree, the theory of QM makes predictions about the universe. If these are tested and prove false then the theory is falsified. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Callum
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2008, 03:13:52 PM » |
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QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable
I disagree, the theory of QM makes predictions about the universe. If these are tested and prove false then the theory is falsified. The full quote was (my emboldening) Some may cite QM as a model that would be superior to determinism (and QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable, but evaluable as an explanation): this remains to be fully argued. In its guise as a counter to determinism (can you please argue the case?), could you give the aspects (no pun intended) under which it could be falsified? i.e. do those aspects of QM that could pose problems for determinism admit of empirical falsifiablity, or are they metaphysical underpinnings that would be as unfalsifiable as determinism. (I do not make a claim, this is a sincere question) |
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Factinista
Full Member
Karma: +17/-35
Posts: 224
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2008, 06:56:12 AM » |
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Last I checked Quantum Mechanics is not a metaphyiscal claim, it is a phyisical claim that can be tested and falsified. It is on the cutting edge of science and not 100% verified as of yet
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IamMe
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 01:23:59 PM » |
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QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable
I disagree, the theory of QM makes predictions about the universe. If these are tested and prove false then the theory is falsified. The full quote was (my emboldening) Some may cite QM as a model that would be superior to determinism (and QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable, but evaluable as an explanation): this remains to be fully argued. In its guise as a counter to determinism (can you please argue the case?), could you give the aspects (no pun intended) under which it could be falsified? i.e. do those aspects of QM that could pose problems for determinism admit of empirical falsifiablity, or are they metaphysical underpinnings that would be as unfalsifiable as determinism. (I do not make a claim, this is a sincere question) I have to admit that as yet I am no expert. I know that certain predictions of QM have been observed (entanglement, superstates etc.) but I do not know if the 'metaphysical' aspects have or can be directly observed/falsified. I would say however that the fact that other aspects have been observed bolsters the case for the veracity of the metaphysical aspects (as often occurs in science). |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Warr_E_Er
Newbie
Karma: +4/-0
Posts: 49
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 01:57:48 PM » |
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QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable
I disagree, the theory of QM makes predictions about the universe. If these are tested and prove false then the theory is falsified. The full quote was (my emboldening) Some may cite QM as a model that would be superior to determinism (and QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable, but evaluable as an explanation): this remains to be fully argued. In its guise as a counter to determinism (can you please argue the case?), could you give the aspects (no pun intended) under which it could be falsified? i.e. do those aspects of QM that could pose problems for determinism admit of empirical falsifiablity, or are they metaphysical underpinnings that would be as unfalsifiable as determinism. (I do not make a claim, this is a sincere question) If Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle could be disproved (i.e. we could know position and momentum of a particle simultaneously), this could falsify QM. |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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Callum
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« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2008, 08:04:45 AM » |
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QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable
I disagree, the theory of QM makes predictions about the universe. If these are tested and prove false then the theory is falsified. The full quote was (my emboldening) Some may cite QM as a model that would be superior to determinism (and QM is a metaphysical theory too... i.e not falsifiable, but evaluable as an explanation): this remains to be fully argued. In its guise as a counter to determinism (can you please argue the case?), could you give the aspects (no pun intended) under which it could be falsified? i.e. do those aspects of QM that could pose problems for determinism admit of empirical falsifiablity, or are they metaphysical underpinnings that would be as unfalsifiable as determinism. (I do not make a claim, this is a sincere question) If Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle could be disproved (i.e. we could know position and momentum of a particle simultaneously), this could falsify QM. That is an Epistemological claim i.e. as to what can or cannot be known/what counts as knowledge. That falls short of metaphysical proof. |
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allpoints
Full Member
Karma: +24/-2
Posts: 214
I don't care if it rains or freezes...
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2008, 06:41:17 PM » |
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Radioactive decay has no discernible cause, other than "zero is unstable". Professor Hawking discusses Scientific Determinism: http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/public/dice.html |
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