Factinista
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« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2008, 11:02:27 AM » |
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We do know they DID invade, meaning they weren't the first population and we can be fairly sure that God didn't tell them to do so. Unless you are saying that Jesus's dad told the Jews to conquer, rape and pillage?
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Terry Mathis
High Society
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Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2008, 11:09:19 AM » |
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We do know they DID invade, meaning they weren't the first population and we can be fairly sure that God didn't tell them to do so. Unless you are saying that Jesus's dad told the Jews to conquer, rape and pillage?
I don't know, it is unclear yet.  |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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IamMe
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« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2008, 12:08:02 PM » |
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Either way Islam is certainly not a force for good within greater Palestine
Nor is Zionist Judaism. Both sides feel that they have a religious birthright to the same land. Both are wrong. How is that? Palestine and Israel have always been Hebrew from the beginning (ancient history and the Old Testament). So what? For the Palestinians and the Israelis living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #18 on: February 29, 2008, 01:52:54 PM » |
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Either way Islam is certainly not a force for good within greater Palestine
Nor is Zionist Judaism. Both sides feel that they have a religious birthright to the same land. Both are wrong. How is that? Palestine and Israel have always been Hebrew from the beginning (ancient history and the Old Testament). So what? For the Palestinians and the Israelis living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. Somebody is going to be 'displaced' if Hamas doesn't come to its senses, and it won't be Israel.  |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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IamMe
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« Reply #19 on: February 29, 2008, 02:15:29 PM » |
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Either way Islam is certainly not a force for good within greater Palestine
Nor is Zionist Judaism. Both sides feel that they have a religious birthright to the same land. Both are wrong. How is that? Palestine and Israel have always been Hebrew from the beginning (ancient history and the Old Testament). So what? For the Palestinians and the Israelis living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. Somebody is going to be 'displaced' if Hamas doesn't come to its senses, and it won't be Israel. Only because Israel happens to be more powerful. They don't have any moral highground. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #20 on: February 29, 2008, 02:29:49 PM » |
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I never said they did, but they have the power, which is all important in the Mid-East.
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Callum
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« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2008, 03:25:02 PM » |
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Somebody is going to be 'displaced' if Hamas doesn't come to its senses, and it won't be Israel. Whether Hamas changes or not, it is the Palestinian people who will suffer. Hamas may provide an excuse for Israel to rape and pillage as did its ancestors - but they will do so whether they have Hamas as a pretext or not. The last 60 years is testament to that. The only land the Israelis will not take is worthless, or marginal enough to house their cheap labour pool (even an underclass must live somewhere) |
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2008, 03:45:47 PM » |
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Somebody is going to be 'displaced' if Hamas doesn't come to its senses, and it won't be Israel. Whether Hamas changes or not, it is the Palestinian people who will suffer. Hamas may provide an excuse for Israel to rape and pillage as did its ancestors - but they will do so whether they have Hamas as a pretext or not. The last 60 years is testament to that. The only land the Israelis will not take is worthless, or marginal enough to house their cheap labour pool (even an underclass must live somewhere) That is an unsubstantiated view, Hamas simply doesn't care.. like many terrorist organisations. They are the ones that put their own people at risk, hiding behind women and children is an abomination. Obviously you are anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish. You would have Hamas send untargeted missiles into Israel where innocents are the one that suffer as well? You know as well as I do that if the missiles stopped, so would the Israeli agression. And just maybe, the peace talks between Abbas and Olmert would have a chance. Even Fatah (Abbas's faction) can't make headway with Hamas. |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Callum
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« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2008, 11:53:37 PM » |
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Somebody is going to be 'displaced' if Hamas doesn't come to its senses, and it won't be Israel. Whether Hamas changes or not, it is the Palestinian people who will suffer. Hamas may provide an excuse for Israel to rape and pillage as did its ancestors - but they will do so whether they have Hamas as a pretext or not. The last 60 years is testament to that. The only land the Israelis will not take is worthless, or marginal enough to house their cheap labour pool (even an underclass must live somewhere) That is an unsubstantiated view, Hamas simply doesn't care.. like many terrorist organisations. They are the ones that put their own people at risk, hiding behind women and children is an abomination. Obviously you are anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish. You would have Hamas send untargeted missiles into Israel where innocents are the one that suffer as well? You know as well as I do that if the missiles stopped, so would the Israeli agression. And just maybe, the peace talks between Abbas and Olmert would have a chance. Even Fatah (Abbas's faction) can't make headway with Hamas. Three suggestions for your eduation: "That is an unsubstantiated view, Hamas simply doesn't care" - I suggest you go look up 'unintended irony'. "You would have Hamas send untargeted missiles into Israel where innocents are the one that suffer as well?" - I also suggest you look you some statistics on death and injury tolls among "innocents" "Obviously you are anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish." - Finally I suggest that you learn how words can distinguish between things. The two attitudes are not synonymous. I proudly admit to the former and vehemently deny the latter. And one last point - thanks to Israel's continual dishonest conflation of colonialism and judaism, posts like yours and this swither between Religion and Politics sections. Make no mistake - the topic is entirely political (except insofar as the actions of both Hamas and particualrly the Isreali government are utterly immoral) |
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2008, 12:05:36 AM » |
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Whatever, you're telling your story. I'm really not interested. I already know that you are hypocritical. .. don't bother posting anymore on this, I know all I need to know. I'm just bored anymore.. |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Callum
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2008, 01:17:39 AM » |
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Whatever, you're telling your story. I'm really not interested. I already know that you are hypocritical. .. don't bother posting anymore on this, I know all I need to know. I'm just bored anymore.. Perish the thought that you should have to think. Yet another suggestion - go look up what 'hypocritcal' means. (Its always good to have the last word with hidebounds... since of course in view of what you've just said you won't reply... yawn yawn) |
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Patton
Global Moderator
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2008, 06:56:28 AM » |
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.....living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. And Ireland has such a rich history of not violating this principle? What of those who considered themselves British subjects since the 15th century? Should Britain occupy Ireland? These arguments can go round and round....it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........ |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Callum
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2008, 08:44:31 AM » |
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.....living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. And Ireland has such a rich history of not violating this principle? What of those who considered themselves British subjects since the 15th century? Should Britain occupy Ireland? These arguments can go round and round....it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........ This topic has deviated from P&R. You may like to move it somewhere else. As far as your points go, I see little current applicability of IamMe's "there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes" to the Irish situation... unless as you say you want to go back far enough in time. The foundation of western society is on a philosophical assumption of certain rights and the equality of people. Sadly a dominant and domineering part of the western world has forgotten this and bases everything on individuals' "rights" on enforce inequality and inequity. How much of this comes from the Middle Eastern rapacity and "justification" of Israel and how much is home-grown I hesitate to judge. Suffice it to say that I at least still believe that people should be treated as people, not sub-humans to be starved out of existence. |
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Patton
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2008, 08:51:57 AM » |
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I see little current applicability of IamMe's "there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes" to the Irish situation... unless as you say you want to go back far enough in time. Hence...."These arguments can go round and round.... it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........" Suffice it to say that I at least still believe that people should be treated as people, not sub-humans to be starved out of existence. War IS hell...... |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Factinista
Full Member
Karma: +17/-35
Posts: 224
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2008, 09:33:18 AM » |
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don't try to rationalize suffering by using some oblique statement. If you truely believe that war is hell and we should forget about casualties then we shouldn't care about 9/11 or those who die in Iraq. War is hell, yea, this does not lessen the suffering on both sides and it does not justify conquest.
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