Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2008, 12:07:56 PM » |
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.....living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. And Ireland has such a rich history of not violating this principle? What of those who considered themselves British subjects since the 15th century? Should Britain occupy Ireland? These arguments can go round and round....it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........ Gen'ral, you can put almost any nation in this catagory!  |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Patton
Global Moderator
Hero Member
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« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2008, 12:33:02 PM » |
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don't try to rationalize suffering by using some oblique statement. How is my statement "War is hell" an attempt to "rationalize suffering?"....it is nothing more than a statement of the obvious. If you truely believe that war is hell and we should forget about casualties then we shouldn't care about 9/11 or those who die in Iraq. War is hell, yea, this does not lessen the suffering on both sides and it does not justify conquest. I beg to differ.....war was brought to us....this "justifys conquest"....remember a little thing we call Pearl Harbor? At least Pearl Harbor was a military target.... |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Callum
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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2008, 01:42:01 AM » |
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I see little current applicability of IamMe's "there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes" to the Irish situation... unless as you say you want to go back far enough in time. Hence...."These arguments can go round and round.... it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........" Perhaps I did not make myself clear. There is an inalienable right for people not to be oppressed. However, if you are in the wrong, you will go back in time to try to fabricate some 'justification' for why you violate that right. Suffice it to say that I at least still believe that people should be treated as people, not sub-humans to be starved out of existence. War IS hell...... I mindless soundbite that does not excuse or justify it. Rape is hell, dismemberment is hell, listening to politicians is hell, etc.... |
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« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 04:01:25 AM by Patton »
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2008, 01:51:35 AM » |
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Callum, have you ever heard of the real world, not the philosophical one you seem to live in? .. Reality sucks, but it is here to stay. |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Factinista
Full Member
Karma: +17/-35
Posts: 224
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2008, 07:01:04 AM » |
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So rather than agree with a very humanitarian statement you choose to rationalize the violence being done? You had a choice to agree with the statement "There is an inalienable right for people not to be oppressed. " and apparently you choose to ignore it. This jibber jabber about "war is hell" and "reality sucks" is simply an attempt to rationalize previously held beliefs that Palestinians are either not worthy of liberty or that they deserve to be in the conditions they are now.
I don't understand how people can so easily look past the obvious. Hardline fundamentalist Islam and Judaism are enemies to reason, liberty, and humanity.
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2008, 07:16:17 AM » |
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The obvious is reality. Wishing it wasn't so is just that, a wish...and has nothing to do with the radical elements of either radical Muslims or radical Jews.
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Shehrazad
aka 'Untouchables'
Full Member
Karma: +1/-33
Posts: 196
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2008, 10:29:06 AM » |
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don't try to rationalize suffering by using some oblique statement. How is my statement "War is hell" an attempt to "rationalize suffering?"....it is nothing more than a statement of the obvious. If you truely believe that war is hell and we should forget about casualties then we shouldn't care about 9/11 or those who die in Iraq. War is hell, yea, this does not lessen the suffering on both sides and it does not justify conquest. I beg to differ..... war was brought to us....this "justifys conquest"....remember a little thing we call Pearl Harbor? At least Pearl Harbor was a military target.... Iraq -who has payed half million citizens killed- has attacked US? this is your Pearl Harbor!?...wake up Gle; it's not WWII here. |
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“The exact contrary of what is generally believed is often the truth.”- Jean de la Bruyère
\\\"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world\\\".
Nelson Mandela
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Factinista
Full Member
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Posts: 224
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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2008, 10:59:58 AM » |
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The obvious is reality. Wishing it wasn't so is just that, a wish...and has nothing to do with the radical elements of either radical Muslims or radical Jews.
well then lets form a hypothesis that we can analyze. What would you propose is the problem in Palestine? |
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2008, 11:09:15 AM » |
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The obvious is reality. Wishing it wasn't so is just that, a wish...and has nothing to do with the radical elements of either radical Muslims or radical Jews.
well then lets form a hypothesis that we can analyze. What would you propose is the problem in Palestine? Hamas and like minded terrorist groups. |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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IamMe
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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2008, 12:44:49 PM » |
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.....living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. And Ireland has such a rich history of not violating this principle? What of those who considered themselves British subjects since the 15th century? Should Britain occupy Ireland? These arguments can go round and round....it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........ I generally don't follow the typical Irish dogma on these issues: Britain was wrong originally to invade Ireland. But by the time the Home Rule crisis around the turn of the century arose (and actually some time before that) Ireland was just as much a home to the Unionist population as it was to the Nationalists. The Unionists were entitled to not want to leave the UK (and economically they were right) and their rights (as sovereign individuals) should have been respected. (I also don't buy into any of the usual nationalistic bullshit about independence. Our so-called patriots were entirely wrong to try to win independence through violence.) It is the same in the Middle-East: the Israelis were wrong to seize Palestinian lands, and they are continually wrong in their brutal suppression of the Palestinian population. Palestinian terrorists are wrong to use violence in the same way as Israeli state-terrorists are wrong to use violence. The Palestinians are also wrong to expect present Israelis to leave their homes. The only viable solutions are those that recognizes that that one small strip of land is a home to all of those who live there - and hence they all have the right to live there. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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IamMe
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2008, 12:56:43 PM » |
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The obvious is reality. Wishing it wasn't so is just that, a wish...and has nothing to do with the radical elements of either radical Muslims or radical Jews.
Why are you pointing out that reality is real? What could that possibly add to the discussion? Callum, Factinista and I are simply trying to point out that Israel has no moral highground, that the Palestinians do not deserve to be mistreated and that there is no qualitative difference between radical Islamic (i.e. Hamas) and radical Jewish (i.e. Israeli army) terrorism. The problem will not go away while the international community continues to back Israel when in reality they are the pot and kettle blowing the shit out of each other. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2008, 12:59:39 PM » |
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.....living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. And Ireland has such a rich history of not violating this principle? What of those who considered themselves British subjects since the 15th century? Should Britain occupy Ireland? These arguments can go round and round....it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........ I generally don't follow the typical Irish dogma on these issues: Britain was wrong originally to invade Ireland. But by the time the Home Rule crisis around the turn of the century arose (and actually some time before that) Ireland was just as much a home to the Unionist population as it was to the Nationalists. The Unionists were entitled to not want to leave the UK (and economically they were right) and their rights (as sovereign individuals) should have been respected. (I also don't buy into any of the usual nationalistic bullshit about independence. Our so-called patriots were entirely wrong to try to win independence through violence.) It is the same in the Middle-East: the Israelis were wrong to seize Palestinian lands, and they are continually wrong in their brutal suppression of the Palestinian population. Palestinian terrorists are wrong to use violence in the same way as Israeli state-terrorists are wrong to use violence. The Palestinians are also wrong to expect present Israelis to leave their homes. The only viable solutions are those that recognizes that that one small strip of land is a home to all of those who live there - and hence they all have the right to live there. . You can't expect Israel not to respond to rocket attacks on their cities and country. The reality is that Israel will respond as it sees fit to stop the rockets. So far that hasn't happened and I doubt that it will with Hamas governing Gaza. |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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IamMe
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« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2008, 01:02:44 PM » |
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The obvious is reality. Wishing it wasn't so is just that, a wish...and has nothing to do with the radical elements of either radical Muslims or radical Jews.
well then lets form a hypothesis that we can analyze. What would you propose is the problem in Palestine? Hamas and like minded terrorist groups. Do you really have this simplistic, childlike view of the world. Israel are equally to blame. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Terry Mathis
High Society
Hero Member
Karma: +57/-92
Posts: 1,239
Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2008, 01:02:55 PM » |
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The obvious is reality. Wishing it wasn't so is just that, a wish...and has nothing to do with the radical elements of either radical Muslims or radical Jews.
Why are you pointing out that reality is real? What could that possibly add to the discussion? Callum, Factinista and I are simply trying to point out that Israel has no moral highground, that the Palestinians do not deserve to be mistreated and that there is no qualitative difference between radical Islamic (i.e. Hamas) and radical Jewish (i.e. Israeli army) terrorism. The problem will not go away while the international community continues to back Israel when in reality they are the pot and kettle blowing the shit out of each other. What it adds is that while you guys are blowing smoke, the situation on the ground is entirely different. The good guy, bad boy philosophical rambling are not real world. |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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IamMe
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« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2008, 01:12:47 PM » |
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.....living there now the area is their home and they have an equal right to be there. There is no such thing as a historical birthright; there is only people's rights not to be displaced from or oppressed in their homes. And Ireland has such a rich history of not violating this principle? What of those who considered themselves British subjects since the 15th century? Should Britain occupy Ireland? These arguments can go round and round....it just depends how far back one wants to begin the timeline........ I generally don't follow the typical Irish dogma on these issues: Britain was wrong originally to invade Ireland. But by the time the Home Rule crisis around the turn of the century arose (and actually some time before that) Ireland was just as much a home to the Unionist population as it was to the Nationalists. The Unionists were entitled to not want to leave the UK (and economically they were right) and their rights (as sovereign individuals) should have been respected. (I also don't buy into any of the usual nationalistic bullshit about independence. Our so-called patriots were entirely wrong to try to win independence through violence.) It is the same in the Middle-East: the Israelis were wrong to seize Palestinian lands, and they are continually wrong in their brutal suppression of the Palestinian population. Palestinian terrorists are wrong to use violence in the same way as Israeli state-terrorists are wrong to use violence. The Palestinians are also wrong to expect present Israelis to leave their homes. The only viable solutions are those that recognizes that that one small strip of land is a home to all of those who live there - and hence they all have the right to live there. . You can't expect Israel not to respond to rocket attacks on their cities and country. The reality is that Israel will respond as it sees fit to stop the rockets. So far that hasn't happened and I doubt that it will with Hamas governing Gaza. And you cannot expect Hamas not to respond to helicopter gunship attacks on Palestinian civilians (as well as the unjust suppression of their civil rights). And so the violence continues ad infinitum. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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