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Author Topic: Universal Healthcare - For or Against?  (Read 2402 times)
tadpol
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« Reply #150 on: March 14, 2008, 01:17:08 PM »

Y'know what really helps with longevity? Eating food, drinking clean water and sleeping inside. Personally I'd add sunlight, fresh air and exorcise before a doctor visit, but I think it's hard to argue against those three as being more important. If I was going to federally mandate things that increase longevity I'd start from the bottom and work my way up. Make the most miserable less miserable rather than helping the poorly off be comfortable.

I don't really get longevity as a right. Could you explain that better?
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IamMe
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« Reply #151 on: March 14, 2008, 01:52:24 PM »

Y'know what really helps with longevity? Eating food, drinking clean water and sleeping inside. Personally I'd add sunlight, fresh air and exorcise before a doctor visit, but I think it's hard to argue against those three as being more important. If I was going to federally mandate things that increase longevity I'd start from the bottom and work my way up. Make the most miserable less miserable rather than helping the poorly off be comfortable.

I don't really get longevity as a right. Could you explain that better?

The alternative to longevity is an early death. If there are measures that can prevent this (without conflicting with civil rights, which rules out what you have above) then the state has a duty to provide those services. Hence, universal healthcare.
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tadpol
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« Reply #152 on: March 14, 2008, 02:12:38 PM »

Conflicts with civil rights? You lost me. Are we talking about forcing people to do things or guaranteeing them the use of services?
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IamMe
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« Reply #153 on: March 16, 2008, 02:24:48 PM »

Conflicts with civil rights? You lost me. Are we talking about forcing people to do things or guaranteeing them the use of services?

Sorry. What I meant was that forcing people to get sunlight, fresh air and exercise is a violation of their civil rights - but we have a duty to provide food, shelter, clean water and healthcare.
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gommi
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« Reply #154 on: March 16, 2008, 06:05:31 PM »

Sorry. What I meant was that forcing people to get sunlight, fresh air and exercise is a violation of their civil rights - but we have a duty to provide food, shelter, clean water and healthcare.
I agree with you, however some degree of coercion is necessary to ensure that all members of society are provided with healthcare and clean water (food and shelter is more of a personal responsibility).

Do you consider taxation to be a violation of rights, or only laws that force certain behaviors onto citizens?
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tadpol
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« Reply #155 on: March 17, 2008, 01:30:18 PM »

I thinking guaranteeing access can apply to sunlight fresh air and exorcise too, but lets let that drop and consider only the clear cut ones.

... we have a duty to provide food, shelter, clean water and healthcare.

If we have a duty to all of those why is only the least vital one being agitated for? I should think providing basic rights should proceed from most basic or easiest to grant, how does healthcare get top billing?
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gommi
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« Reply #156 on: March 17, 2008, 06:30:14 PM »

If we have a duty to all of those why is only the least vital one being agitated for? I should think providing basic rights should proceed from most basic or easiest to grant, how does healthcare get top billing?
Food is mass produced and is relatively cheap in Western societies, while medical procedures are always expensive. As for providing shelter, people should not be dependent on public housing, and it is not nearly as important an issue as health care.

Besides health care, the only services that require more attention are education, infrastructure, and social security in my opinion. 
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IamMe
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« Reply #157 on: March 18, 2008, 12:30:47 PM »

Sorry. What I meant was that forcing people to get sunlight, fresh air and exercise is a violation of their civil rights - but we have a duty to provide food, shelter, clean water and healthcare.
I agree with you, however some degree of coercion is necessary to ensure that all members of society are provided with healthcare and clean water (food and shelter is more of a personal responsibility).

Do you consider taxation to be a violation of rights, or only laws that force certain behaviors onto citizens?

I don't consider tax a violation of rights because I don't believe that people's "property rights" supersede their obligation to pay tax so that the less well-off can get basic services.
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« Reply #158 on: March 18, 2008, 12:36:17 PM »

I thinking guaranteeing access can apply to sunlight fresh air and exorcise too, but lets let that drop and consider only the clear cut ones.

... we have a duty to provide food, shelter, clean water and healthcare.

If we have a duty to all of those why is only the least vital one being agitated for? I should think providing basic rights should proceed from most basic or easiest to grant, how does healthcare get top billing?

Well, in most reasonable societies social welfare covers food and housing. The US is not such a society (Workfare is slavery by another name).
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neue regel
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« Reply #159 on: March 18, 2008, 04:29:05 PM »

Quote
Well, in most reasonable societies social welfare covers food and housing. The US is not such a society

We have no welfare programs that cover food and housing? Have you been sleeping in class?
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Leo
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« Reply #160 on: March 19, 2008, 12:26:12 AM »

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Well, in most reasonable societies social welfare covers food and housing. The US is not such a society

We have no welfare programs that cover food and housing? Have you been sleeping in class?

I don't know to which society you are referring when you use the term 'we". But there are a number of societies which have welfare programmes that provide both food and housing, (Australia being but one of those).
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tadpol
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« Reply #161 on: March 19, 2008, 09:50:21 AM »

Ok now remembering we are in the US forums, lets try this one last time.

The US the federal government does not guaranty me food or shelter, there are assistance programs but they do not have 100% coverage.
These are more important than healthcare.
These are less expensive to guaranty than healthcare.

If one accepts those I find it hard to suggest healthcare should be the priority. What am I missing?
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Leo
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« Reply #162 on: March 19, 2008, 12:22:18 PM »

Ok now remembering we are in the US forums, lets try this one last time.

The US the federal government does not guaranty me food or shelter, there are assistance programs but they do not have 100% coverage.
These are more important than healthcare.
These are less expensive to guaranty than healthcare.

If one accepts those I find it hard to suggest healthcare should be the priority. What am I missing?

I don't think you are missing anything, and I take your point about being in the US forum.  Smiley

However it is possible, and indeed advisable, to discuss the matter in principle, and such discussion could (and probably should) encompass what is done in other societies. The US is not the centre of the universe, and it may be quite instructional to examine what works well in other successful societies.  Wink
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Joe53
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« Reply #163 on: March 19, 2008, 08:30:14 PM »

Hi, been a while since I've been online.

I am 100% against universal healthcare.

I live in Alaska, close to Canada, and meet Canadians, French Canadians, and even study Canadian Goverment and Society and the health care crisis there. With shortages of doctors, nurses, money, richer candians going to private practices, and long wait times for health, and just last year they made it where people seeking cancer treatment get more priority, it's a horrible mess. Now in Cuba it works cause Cuba has lot less population compare to Canada.

If the U.S. want to seek a good plan, I propose this.

First, let states set up a plan. In Alaska we have universial health care (denali kid kare) which cover every Alaskan child from birth to the age of 18. Now I know not every state have a ton of oil underground and don't have a ton of money (Mississippi) then I propose the Federal Goverment may help them out some more.

Second, the big problem I think is so few Americans stay healthy. Fast foods, big serving sizes, and un-healthy lifestyle. I think it just as simple as promote a healthy life style for children on up. High schools and middle school in some states removed candy and soda machines. I've always eat healthy, not perfect I have an Alaska Amber when i can, but it's people that take care of their health. A more healthy nation means a nation with less trips.

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Leo
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« Reply #164 on: March 20, 2008, 12:25:09 AM »

Hi, been a while since I've been online.

I am 100% against universal healthcare.

I live in Alaska, close to Canada, and meet Canadians, French Canadians, and even study Canadian Goverment and Society and the health care crisis there. With shortages of doctors, nurses, money, richer candians going to private practices, and long wait times for health, and just last year they made it where people seeking cancer treatment get more priority, it's a horrible mess. Now in Cuba it works cause Cuba has lot less population compare to Canada.

If the U.S. want to seek a good plan, I propose this.

First, let states set up a plan. In Alaska we have universial health care (denali kid kare) which cover every Alaskan child from birth to the age of 18. Now I know not every state have a ton of oil underground and don't have a ton of money (Mississippi) then I propose the Federal Goverment may help them out some more.

Second, the big problem I think is so few Americans stay healthy. Fast foods, big serving sizes, and un-healthy lifestyle. I think it just as simple as promote a healthy life style for children on up. High schools and middle school in some states removed candy and soda machines. I've always eat healthy, not perfect I have an Alaska Amber when i can, but it's people that take care of their health. A more healthy nation means a nation with less trips.



With respect, you are 100% against universal health care on the basis of your impressions of the situation in one society (out of scores) which employ this system? Are you familiar with the situation in France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Austria, the UK, Ireland, or Australia?

And all civilised health care systems employ triage, which means giving priority to life threatening conditions, such as cancer. I do not see why you mention it as a fault within the Canadian system.

Secondly, the population of a given society has little, if any, effect upon systems of funding such as UHC. Of far greater significance is the physical size of a land and its population distribution. The delivery of health care is much more difficult in huge, sparsely populated nations such as Canada and Australia, for obvious reasons. In fact, as far as funding is concerned, especially if this is done via progressive taxation, the larger the population, the larger the funding base, and the better funded the system.

Your proposal of a state based universal health care plan (similar to the one operating in Alaska for people up to 18) is an excellent one (but it should not be limited to people under 18). This is in fact similar to the situation in Australia.

Each Australian state is obliged under the act to provide a system of universal health care for all its citizens, and for citizens of participating foreign countries (such as Canadians, Brits, and the Europeans) who are in Australia. The funding is via something called the Medicare Levy (which is 1.5% of assessable income) and must be paid by all Australians who earn over a certain minimal amount (about $15,000, I think).  This is collected by the taxation department and distributed by the federal government to the states on a per capita/needs basis. The state concerned provides much infrastructure and pays the private practitioners who supply the actual health care services.

Choice is maintained, as you may go to whatever doctor or hospital you choose, and the state government pays the bill. There are a small minority of doctors and hospitals who are 'private' in the sense that they charge over the scheduled fees, but you have the choice to use them or not. If you do, you have to pay the difference between the fee they choose to charge and the scheduled fee. But the vast majority of health care providers are content to charge the scheduled fees, and you pay nothing.

The World Health Organisation ranks France as the best health care service in the world, and even poor old Britain's NHS is ranked 12th, as against the private insurance system in the US which is ranked 37th.

So an universal health care system does not have to be a creaky old Soviet style system, with long waiting lists, and rusty instruments.  And a country as rich as the United States only has to want an excellent system of UHC (and ignore the bogeyman of Socialism), in order to get it. Smiley
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