Factinista
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« on: February 25, 2008, 10:03:29 AM » |
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Determinism - the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.
Ignoring the question of first cause, would it be possible to prove/disprove determinsim?
What would be a thought experiment that could disprove determinism of our conscious minds?
In other words, could we be determined to falsify determinism?
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« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 10:16:20 AM by Factinista »
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IamMe
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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2008, 01:05:08 PM » |
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Determinism - the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.
Ignoring the question of first cause, would it be possible to prove/disprove determinsim?
What would be a thought experiment that could disprove determinism of our conscious minds?
In other words, could we be determined to falsify determinism?
If we were to observe an event that had no cause, we would falsify determinism (so long as it is not the first event in the universe). |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2008, 01:56:24 PM » |
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Determinism - the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.
Ignoring the question of first cause, would it be possible to prove/disprove determinsim?
What would be a thought experiment that could disprove determinism of our conscious minds?
In other words, could we be determined to falsify determinism?
If we were to observe an event that had no cause, we would falsify determinism... Science adheres to a deterministic philosophy. If no cause is found for an event, it is assumed we just havent figured it out yet. I dont think a scientist could ever falsify determinism since it defies the goal of science. (so long as it is not the first event in the universe).
Nice disclaimer  |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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IamMe
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2008, 02:10:56 PM » |
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Determinism - the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.
Ignoring the question of first cause, would it be possible to prove/disprove determinsim?
What would be a thought experiment that could disprove determinism of our conscious minds?
In other words, could we be determined to falsify determinism?
If we were to observe an event that had no cause, we would falsify determinism... Science adheres to a deterministic philosophy. If no cause is found for an event, it is assumed we just havent figured it out yet. I dont think a scientist could ever falsify determinism since it defies the goal of science. I disagree. I don't think science's goal is to prove determinism. It is simply a necessary axiom. (so long as it is not the first event in the universe).
Nice disclaimer |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2008, 02:30:27 PM » |
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I disagree. I don't think science's goal is to prove determinism. It is simply a necessary axiom. (so long as it is not the first event in the universe).
Nice disclaimer I'm not disagreeing with you. Science is a form of determinism. However, if we were to apply the scientific method to determinism, we could never disprove it since science implicitly acknowledges a cause. Ergo, determinism can never be falsified. |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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IamMe
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« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2008, 02:39:42 PM » |
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I disagree. I don't think science's goal is to prove determinism. It is simply a necessary axiom. (so long as it is not the first event in the universe).
Nice disclaimer I'm not disagreeing with you. Science is a form of determinism. However, if we were to apply the scientific method to determinism, we could never disprove it since science implicitly acknowledges a cause. Ergo, determinism can never be falsified. Perhaps science can't, I feel its a matter for philosophers. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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tadpol
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« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2008, 03:13:55 PM » |
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I read of an experiment that has proved either locality (universal speed limit) or determinism is false with most quantum physicists parting ways with determinism. I did a quick search and failed to re-find it though.
Any true randomness would disprove determinism. And I would suggest it'd be easier to prove something was truly random mathematically than causeless physically.
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2008, 04:50:24 PM » |
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I read of an experiment that has proved either locality (universal speed limit) or determinism is false with most quantum physicists parting ways with determinism. I did a quick search and failed to re-find it though. Perhaps you're referencing Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle (?) Any true randomness would disprove determinism. And I would suggest it'd be easier to prove something was truly random mathematically than causeless physically.
What does it mean to be random? Is it something that is actually causeless? Or merely something we haven't solved yet? Can we tell the difference? How? |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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tadpol
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2008, 10:24:27 AM » |
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I think I was referring to the EPR thought experiment and real world results, but having done a more thorough job of research I'd no longer say most physicists make any strong choice.
Sorry for that.
Randomness does mean causeless on some level, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But cause and effect are difficult to explore physically, and as I understand require very cleaver experiments with very precise results. Making a mathematical proof of randomness or it's impossibility to prove strikes me as a better armchair game. This exercise has been left to the reader.
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Factinista
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« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2008, 07:41:19 AM » |
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If then everything is determined, even on the atomic level to a degree, then does free will exist? Does the consciousness we take for granted really exist, is it an illusion, or do we need to rethink exactly what it is we have "will" over?
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2008, 10:00:41 AM » |
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If then everything is determined, even on the atomic level to a degree, then does free will exist? Does the consciousness we take for granted really exist, is it an illusion, or do we need to rethink exactly what it is we have "will" over?
Depends. Are you a materialist or a dualist? Dualism refers to a seperation of the mind and the body (ghost in a machine, if you will). If the mind regresses purely to physical states, then I would say no, there is no free will (at least as we define it). However, if there is such a dichotomy, then free will is possible. In my case, I am a borderline cartesian dualist. |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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IamMe
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« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2008, 02:06:33 PM » |
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I don't think random means causeless per se - just inherently unpredictable (not as in too complex for us to predict but rather that before the event occurs one cannot predict its outcome, even with omniscience).
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2008, 09:58:16 AM » |
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I don't think random means causeless per se - just inherently unpredictable (not as in too complex for us to predict but rather that before the event occurs one cannot predict its outcome, even with omniscience).
This is an idea that science seems to reject, or at least ignore. Since it is based on the accumulation of empirical evidence for proving or disproving claims, how can 'random' ever be accepted within the scientific community? Or how will there ever be enough evidence to accept 'random'? BTW, why would it be beyond predictable for an omniscient being? |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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Callum
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« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2008, 10:08:13 AM » |
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If then everything is determined, even on the atomic level to a degree, then does free will exist? Does the consciousness we take for granted really exist, is it an illusion, or do we need to rethink exactly what it is we have "will" over?
Depends. Are you a materialist or a dualist? Dualism refers to a seperation of the mind and the body (ghost in a machine, if you will). If the mind regresses purely to physical states, then I would say no, there is no free will (at least as we define it). However, if there is such a dichotomy, then free will is possible. In my case, I am a borderline cartesian dualist. Interestingly, being a dualist doesn't actually get you off the deterministic hook. After all, dualists (god bless them) seem to believe that their non-material 'selves' can causes physical events (in some way, undefined). Yet if you follow this into the wild woods of theism, these 'selves' are themselves totally constrained in what they can or cannot do - in the 'afterlife' (or 'beforelife', or wherever). Just a nonsense incoherent position. |
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IamMe
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« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2008, 12:42:52 PM » |
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I don't think random means causeless per se - just inherently unpredictable (not as in too complex for us to predict but rather that before the event occurs one cannot predict its outcome, even with omniscience).
This is an idea that science seems to reject, or at least ignore. Since it is based on the accumulation of empirical evidence for proving or disproving claims, how can 'random' ever be accepted within the scientific community? Or how will there ever be enough evidence to accept 'random'? I believe some aspects of QM include this kind of randomness. BTW, why would it be beyond predictable for an omniscient being?
Omniscience but not the ability to predict the future. What I mean is that even if you know and can do instantaneous calculations based on every variable in the universe there is nothing that can tell you how a true random event (as opposed to a psuedo-random one) will pan out. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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