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Author Topic: When Women Were Property  (Read 1772 times)
HumanBeast
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« on: February 28, 2008, 11:48:13 AM »

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A long time ago, before I was born anyhow, men strode the Earth as the propertied class and a married woman was her husband's chattel, which is a legal term for a specific kind of property. Feminists make much capital of this - to be a man's chattel is clearly a fearful thing, and evidence enough of the evil and tasteless nature of men's attitude toward women for all history.

Oddly enough, there were no public market-places where a man could bring his wife once he had sated his hideous appetites on her, and sell her for whatever price the next man would pay. There were, however, plenty of market places where he could sell all his other property publicly, from his house, to his animals, to the wares that were the product of his labour. And buy and sell these other properties he did, with public records that go back hundreds of years documenting the commerce men made of all manner of things, real as well as abstract. But there is no documentation of the commerce of wives between men.

Clearly women were a very singular kind of property.

At the same time, men were schooled to rise when a lady entered a room. A gentleman was also taught to never contradict a lady, to show her respect at all times, to open doors for her, relieve her of any heavy labour and to protect her reputation. These polite obligations passed from expectation to personal responsibility if a man should marry the lady in question.

These behaviours that a man exhibited for his wife-property bear no resemblance at all to the behaviour shown for his sheep/cattle/slave-property.

Rather, it's the very same way a subordinate defers to his superior in the military, the way defendants and plaintiffs defer to the judge in a courtroom, the way a servant behaved with respect to his employer in a Victorian household and the way slaves submitted before their masters in more antique times.

Gentlemen were also expected to sacrifice their lives to save that of the womenfolk in times of peril, such as the sinking of a cruise-liner. Even the lowest of women on the Titanic enjoyed a greater chance of survival than the very wealthiest of men on board.

Yet these women were mere 'property'.

How many men would have sacrificed their own lives to save that of their sheep, cows and pigs? I would hazard none, and yet there's no doubting that a man's livestock is also his property.

Of course, sinkings like the Titanic are not common, and not the sort of thing to make generalisations about. For common occurrences that one can generalise about, one points to battle-ground cemeteries. For the First World War alone, there are millions of dead men all buried together under the hills of France and Belgium, blown to pieces, shot, gassed, bayonetted and diseased in order to spare their women the horror of defending themselves against aggressors. The miles of little white crosses are of a scale that quite stretches the imagination. Picture everyone at Woodstock, all half million of them, laid out dead or wounded. Then double it. That's the same magnitude as the Battle of the Somme alone. One battle of many in only one war. All of these crosses mark the bones of men - the propertied class. Those unfortunate women, that mass of men's property that Feminists would have us grieve for, are nowhere buried in mass graves, having fallen in the defence of their owners.

How very odd.

To be property in name and law
but in manner and substance proprietor.
Source: http://onemanskingdom.blogspot.com/2008/01...e-property.html





How were women oppressed then, lefties?
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JFree89
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« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2008, 06:33:05 PM »

They enjoyed some "perks" back in traditional society but also suffered too I think. Of course a strong feminist wouldn't take this into consideration.
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Viv.
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« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 10:29:01 AM »

Well I am not what you would call a militant feminist, but a couple of points... Wink

Men died in war...yes...because men went to war.  War exists because men have to dominate, they have a ridiculously competitive approach to the smallest (pun intended) of things.  No moral high-ground from that, it's their own doing.

Suggestion seems to be that women had a great time, doing nothing whilst being treated like goddesses, respected and honoured.  In which social strata did that exist?  Not the situation for the normal working class, I suspect, where women fired out child after child in abysmal living conditions and put up with a probably drunken, abusive man wasting the week's wages on the pavement outside the pub every pay day.  Give me a break... 

Men had power over women because of superior physical strength, aggression and maybe an element of protection for the woman, that is accepted.  Now that society does not allow superiority by bullying and brute strength, divorce is prevalent.  Women can manage financially, so they don't take that abuse any longer.  All men have to do is meet women half way, do their share, but women work and still do the majority of domestic caretaking.  It's not rocket-science, but men as basically selfish creatures are still unable to grasp this basic concept of equality of the sexes. 

And of course, they want to be heroes... Grin Marriage is happy and lasts so long as the man has everything his way, but first time the woman insists on a need being met...it's curtains.  When kids come along and the woman is busy, she loses her sense of humour.  The selfishness which made the man attractive, that little spoilt boy thing, becomes just an annoying time-sapping irrelevance...

So whereas I personally find the company of some men irresistible, IMO not only were women oppressed, they still are oppressed because in most cases the man will still wander off with the hope of avoiding reality and leave the female to deal with the responsibility of family life alone. 

Losers.sleepy

 
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tadpol
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« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 02:20:48 PM »

Now I'm not what I'd call an ol' time gentleman, but a couple of points.

Now HumanBeast seems to suggest that getting veneration at the cost of equality is a good trade for women but clearly some women disagree. So showing them courtesy in their folly and catching them when they fall seems like the gentlemanly thing to do.

Traditionally men and women were seen as different so were given different rights (including the right of men to beat women) and duties (including the duty of a woman to do whatever her man told her). In modern times our differences have lost a lot of their importance so roles tend to merge. Gender only matters in a couple of instances and even there importance is fading.


Is it really oppression to be abandoned, is not caring for children a right men have taken at women's expense? There are women who abandon their children too, sure nowhere near the numbers perhaps, but I think that matters to make it a point about some people are jerks and a lot of them are men instead of men are jerks.
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JFree89
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« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 05:18:01 PM »

Viv , when have you ever been oppressed because of your gender ?
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Jabato
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« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2008, 07:17:49 AM »

But nowadays, when women can do there are many women that rather prefer getting married than developing her own professional career.

Many of them rather prefer being at home, looking after the kids, than having a job where commitment and responsibility are required. Please, don't make me wrong. I'm only talking about those women with university studies, that do not want to have a job. The old traditional marriage: he is out looking for money to pay the bill and she stays home to rise the kids.

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Viv.
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« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2008, 03:26:37 PM »

Viv , when have you ever been oppressed because of your gender ?

A big question.  Many possible answers.

Short one:  every *****day.  Every time I walk into a room where there is a group of men and they look at me that way...it is oppressive.  Every time the stupid doorman runs to hold open the door and paw me as I try to slink through without letting his grimy paws near me (and this is every day of my LIFE).  Every time the boss asks me into his office to "talk this through in detail" then feels it incumbent to mention his personal preference for blonde members of staff...you are all of you at it constantly and it seems like a bit of fun to you, but on a bad day, it pisses me off.

And of course there is the old boys network, the one which lets you exist but tries to close ranks whenever a woman challenges practice or has anything contentious to raise.  Fortunately in a work setting it's less prevalent than it was and there are many strong women kicking down those doors.  But it is not over by a long way.
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Viv.
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« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2008, 03:32:50 PM »

But nowadays, when women can do there are many women that rather prefer getting married than developing her own professional career.

Many of them rather prefer being at home, looking after the kids, than having a job where commitment and responsibility are required. Please, don't make me wrong. I'm only talking about those women with university studies, that do not want to have a job. The old traditional marriage: he is out looking for money to pay the bill and she stays home to rise the kids.



Saludos Jabato Wink

Tell me where do you find a man who is happy with that arrangement?
I know none, in this country everybody works.  I don't know one woman who lives her life in that way. 
Actually don't think it's good for the kids, but that is another thread, I expect...

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Jabato
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« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2008, 07:15:59 AM »

I know some of them.
One of them is a dentist. His wife is an economist but do not want to work as economist. She rather prefer being at home rising the kids.
Why does she prefer to stay home than earn a living working as an economist? Women and men are equals. Women do not have to stay at home nowadays, as they used to. So why are there many women that simply refuse this "new age" of women liberation and do want to go back again to that pre-equality times.

Saludos
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2008, 03:47:37 PM »

The issue is not going out to work but having the choice. That's what equality is about, not sameness. Suggesting that equality between the sexes implies identical roles seems a bit off to me. An individual should have the freedom to choose the roles they wish to fulfill. That is why I support gender equality (along with equality of persons regardless of sexual orientation). If a woman wants to have kids and raise a family at a certain point in their life it should be a choice that is left to them. Society should not restrict acess to work or any other opportunities based on the participants gender. A woman should be given the freedom to determine what her roles will be rather than having certains roles imposed on them by the society.

I know some of them.
One of them is a dentist. His wife is an economist but do not want to work as economist. She rather prefer being at home rising the kids.
Why does she prefer to stay home than earn a living working as an economist? Women and men are equals. Women do not have to stay at home nowadays, as they used to. So why are there many women that simply refuse this "new age" of women liberation and do want to go back again to that pre-equality times.

Saludos
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Jabato
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« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2008, 08:36:29 AM »

Yilmaz101 wrote:
A woman should be given the freedom to determine what her roles will be rather than having certains roles imposed on them by the society.


But we do live within a society.
In 1960 the Spanish wives were not allowed to open a bank account without their husbands authorization.
In 2008, law says that political parties must be equal regarding candidates: equal number of men and women. And at first, it seems fair, it seems simply common sense, but, no one wanted to know about what was the percentage of women affiliation to political parties before they issued this particular law. 32% in the socialist party of Spain. 30% in the Spanish partido popular.
It is a positive discrimination against men, because they are many more, therefore there must be more men candidates than women candidates. Equality is unfair.

Saludos

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Viv.
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« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2008, 11:12:20 AM »

I know some of them.
One of them is a dentist. His wife is an economist but do not want to work as economist. She rather prefer being at home rising the kids.
Why does she prefer to stay home than earn a living working as an economist? Women and men are equals. Women do not have to stay at home nowadays, as they used to. So why are there many women that simply refuse this "new age" of women liberation and do want to go back again to that pre-equality times.

Saludos

If I had the choice, I think I would choose to be at home.  It's never been a choice.  The culture is that you work and buy the big house on the hill, run two cars, go abroad a few times a year...that's how things are done. 
IMO it's not natural, there are many things which bring happiness within the home and not just regarding looking after children.
Many of my female friends do prefer to be at work and a follow a career.  I do it, but I don't "get" it.


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Jabato
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2008, 12:39:58 AM »

Viv wrote:
If I had the choice, I think I would choose to be at home.  It's never been a choice.  The culture is that you work and buy the big house on the hill, run two cars, go abroad a few times a year...that's how things are done. 
IMO it's not natural, there are many things which bring happiness within the home and not just regarding looking after children.
Many of my female friends do prefer to be at work and a follow a career.  I do it, but I don't "get" it.


I do prefer to be at home and not following any career. What I really want is time. Time for me only, to play my guitar or my bass guitar or to save into my PC all the patches in my pedalboard, in order to replace the battery..... I believe that domestic tasks are the best way to get that time. Tidy up the house is something that only takes a couple of hours, twice or three times a week. The ironing, 2 hours once a week. Washing the clothes, twice a week. So only food, the washing of plates, forks, spoons and knives and leaving your bed ready for the next night, are the only tasks that you necessary have to do daily.
Last time my boss told me: "Hey I want to know who's behind this terrible mistake" and I was the one behind of it..................I rather prefer being at home,............responsibility is not so big and important as it is when you decide to follow a career.

Saludos
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Gojira
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« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2008, 06:58:01 PM »

How were women oppressed then, lefties?

I think your referenced material is a great slap in the face for feminists who constituted females as property during the time.  However, chivalry could be seen as an instrument toward demeaning women in a way by defining them as inferior to own land.  Being an individual was not what a lady did.  It was to sit down and shut-up.  Of course, men thought they were smart enough to think that women couldn't be so stupid so they extended their reign of opression by coming up with stupid ideals that led to values of "chivalry" in order to keep women disillusioned.   Or maybe men just thought the obvious from their perspective at the time; women were inferior yet precious elements of society and required protection.  This leads one to think of women as a prize and in a sub-contextual way, logic leads feminists to think that women were in fact considered poverty. 

So the problem was really how men viewed women as inferior humans, much like other atrociticies in human history, that enabled them to think of women as objects rather than actual people.  

Your referenced material was a great means of seperating the myth through definition that women were actual property.  But the whole idea of property is not a general political discussion, but something left for philosophy, so in a way, the feminists have a leg up there in the uncertainty of the definition.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2008, 02:44:16 PM »

Quote from: Viv
Suggestion seems to be that women had a great time, doing nothing whilst being treated like goddesses, respected and honoured.  In which social strata did that exist?

It's not a question of social strata but how young and pretty she is.
Being young is extremely important for instinctual reasons, much more than being sexy or blond or whatever.
Also because woman young and ugly at the same time are rather rare, rarer than we imagine.

So, the more a woman is young and pretty, the more she will be respected by men and enjoy exceptional priviledges over men or older women.

I don't think a single man on earth (unless he is gay) can resist the seduction of a beautiful woman.
I don't think a single man on earth will ever treat a beautiful woman badly or without respect. That today and in the past.

This respect for young and pretty women is not the fact of men only: Women do respect prety women too.
In general a young woman would be considered are somebody who needs more help than others and therefore more rewarded when they achieve something.
For example a young but brillant scientist woman will astonish everyone, men and women alike, by being not only very intelligent but beautiful at the same time.
Their beauty brings sort of a mystic aura around everything their do or say. An exceptional act or talent will be even more exceptional if it's acompanied with feminity and physical beauty. A huge advanatage over men, older women and anybody else in the society.

When women get older, their social level is lowered. But she has to adapt herself to her new condition.
She has to use more the authority of her function and forget about the physical advantage she once had.
This is valid for private and professional life thought in the private life it's less obvious.
In the past it translated into a higher esteem for mothers and old ladies. Today, social gratification comes from the professional level and women have to work more thier carreer than in the past.
What is hard for them is to do so while losing her physical advantages but here is all the art of human adaptation.
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