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Author Topic: Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust  (Read 1030 times)
Jericoacoara
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« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2008, 01:27:41 PM »



Syria.  Wink

Terry, what is your prediction of what will happen with Syria?
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2008, 01:40:03 PM »



Syria.  Wink

Terry, what is your prediction of what will happen with Syria?



I'm hoping with the presence of the US fleet offshore that they will leave Lebanon alone. If they don't look for the fleet to become more aggressive (trying to read Bush's mind here  Grin ).
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« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2008, 02:23:33 PM »

Tend to agree with Jeri but on a different premise. The country concerned is not Syria but Lebanon! Fuad Saniora is not very popular amongst ordinary lebanese and widely viewed as a 'yes sir' man to the US. This coupled with the US presence with the warships in the region can hardly be seen as maintaining 'peace' IMO.

Kactus, this is how I read the situation but correct me if I am wrong.

Hezbollah and the Lebanese Christians don't want the palestinian settlements. Either does Syria or Hamas. But Israel, US and some other parts of the Palestinians do?

I must admit that given many of the palestinians are armed, I can understand the majority of Lebanon not being thrilled about the situation. And given that their prime minister is seen as a US puppet, I can understand them not being happy at the US war ships coming there. Especially when they can't decide on a president yet.


Have to say that I am not as optimistic as the rest of you here about the current build up. Remember the last summers israelies incursion into Lebanon to fight off the Hezbollah? There's is a belief that Israel wants to strenghten its position and show her might after what was seen as a humiliating defeat against hezbollah. Americans warship presence offshore Lebanon will gather enough intelligence for israelis for the next showdown with Hezbollah. From hezbollah's perspective this is not about palestinian settlements this is about revenge and settling score for the death of Mughnieh by Mossad a couple of weeks ago. But I tell you this the average ordinary lebanese caught in between will not be happy with the US warship's presence there. That's just my opinion!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 02:29:09 PM by kactus » Logged
Shehrazad
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« Reply #18 on: March 03, 2008, 12:16:07 AM »




Mostly terrorists UT.  Wink

MOST are civilians including women and children, and you know it Mr liar!

http://www.juancole.com/2008/01/israeli-atrocity-on-gaza-civilians.html

Quote
Stop Indiscriminate Killing Of Civilians In Gaza
Monday, 3 March 2008, 10:45 am
Press Release: Association for Civil Rights in Israel

Author Sami Michael, ACRI's President, to Olmert and Barak:

Stop Indiscriminate Killing of Civilians in Gaza

Jerusalem - March 2, 2008 - Author Sami Michael, ACRI's President, sent an urgent letter today to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, condemning the disproportionate and indiscriminate attacks on Gaza which have killed dozens of Palestinians, many of whom are civilians, including at least 12 children. Hundreds more have been wounded in this latest round of attacks, and Gaza hospitals are collapsing, unable to treat such a large influx of patients, among other reasons because of the shortage of humanitarian goods allowed into the region
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0803/S00015.htm
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 12:23:31 AM by Shehrazad » Logged

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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2008, 12:43:38 AM »


Show where I lie Untouchables. Show me where Hamas didn't fake the stories. Of course there were civilian casualties, and that is a shame.

But the most were Hamas operatives that were killed.

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Shehrazad
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« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2008, 02:55:39 AM »

Latest News:

During protests in solidarity with Gaza, one Palestinian boy from Hebron shot dead by Israeli army
http://www.imemc.org/article/53203

Seven protestors injured in Bil'in village near Ramallah

http://www.imemc.org/article/53192

During protests in solidarity with Gaza, one Palestinian boy from Hebron shot dead by Israeli army
http://www.imemc.org/article/53187
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« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2008, 05:21:48 AM »

Where do you cut and paste your posts from Untouchables?

I tried and tried bu I could not find any reporting on Israeli causalities on your web site.  Guess maybe it should be called 'All that is against Joooos that is worth reporting or making up'. 
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Shehrazad
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« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2008, 06:30:26 AM »

Where do you cut and paste your posts from Untouchables?

I tried and tried bu I could not find any reporting on Israeli causalities on your web site.  Guess maybe it should be called 'All that is against Joooos that is worth reporting or making up'. 

Mr Goofy, only skilled to turn the discuss into your obsession :"joooos"!!  Tongue

anyway, I will answer your question:
Quote
At least 54 Palestinians and two Israeli soldiers have been killed in one of the deadliest days of fighting in Gaza since troops withdrew in 2005.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7272329.stm
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2008, 06:54:55 AM »

Where do you cut and paste your posts from Untouchables?

I tried and tried bu I could not find any reporting on Israeli causalities on your web site.  Guess maybe it should be called 'All that is against Joooos that is worth reporting or making up'. 

Mr Goofy, only skilled to turn the discuss into your obsession :"joooos"!!  Tongue

anyway, I will answer your question:
Quote
At least 54 Palestinians and two Israeli soldiers have been killed in one of the deadliest days of fighting in Gaza since troops withdrew in 2005.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7272329.stm


Untouchables, Biker is talking about the israeli casualties on the imemc website you posted from. Which is a palestinian run site, so its not entirely objective.

BTW where did you post your BBC link before in the thread? 
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2008, 07:03:29 AM »



More balance:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23313343-2703,00.html
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2008, 07:20:23 AM »


Its a good article Terry. Its a bit more objective than the stuff U/T posts.

It is hard to know who to believe though with casualty reports. Reports by both sides are miles apart.
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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2008, 10:05:47 AM »

Untouchables, Biker is talking about the israeli casualties on the imemc website you posted from. Which is a palestinian run site, so its not entirely objective.

BTW where did you post your BBC link before in the thread? 
I was also interested in Israeli civilian casualties.  From the rockets.  But doubtful that an idiot like UT considers any Israeli to be 'civilian'.
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Shehrazad
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2008, 10:43:51 AM »

Untouchables, Biker is talking about the israeli casualties on the imemc website you posted from. Which is a palestinian run site, so its not entirely objective.

BTW where did you post your BBC link before in the thread? 
I was also interested in Israeli civilian casualties.  From the rockets.  But doubtful that an idiot like UT considers any Israeli to be 'civilian'.

You don't yet understand that "israeli casualties" are quite unnoticed by agencies, because they are counted on fingers- even Terry link didn't note it!

Now you can compare.
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« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2008, 11:12:19 PM »

Well, on the national news tonight they said 3 Israelis and 117 Palestinians have died thus far. I'm pretty sure all 3 Israelies were probably civilians - but is there any clear cut way to determine the details of the Palestinian casulties? No doubt the majority were Hamas... but all 117?

See, this is why debates about the issue are so hard. There is NO perspective. Just dead bodies.

Plus, anyone outside of the Middle East is probably drastically uniformed because the news we read seems to be so vague about the details. Each side tries to turn the other into the monster when in reality, Hamas and Israel are equal in their barbarity.

Untouchables, my anti-Israel streak only goes as far as US support for their hostility, so I doubt I will be an "ally" of yours here. While I'm shocked at the difference in the death toll, I'm unable to make "heads or tails" of any of it. To me their both bad people, and usually I try to take the side of the underdog in situations like this. But when Hamas is "still [fireing] at the southern city of Ashkelon even as the Israeli forces withdrew" I have no choice but to hold the "under dogs" here in contempt.

And while I'd like to bash my government for fucking up, I really have nothing to complain about right now. I mean, I think Rice is an inefectual Secretary of State and NOT the person I would tap in a situation like this, but at least we weren't so quick to defend Israel's actions.


What could the US do to make peace?

Everything depends on making friends with Iran. Iran can try to calm down Hamas (or at least stop arming them - hopefully shutting them up tremendously), which may make Israel a smidge more acceptable to negotiate with. Plus, if Iran is on good terms with the US, Israel will have one less motivation to militirize and may even lay down their American weapons and talk. Syria may be at least willing to negotiate and would be happy to have a peaceful Israel next door. With so much tolerence going on, Iraq may have a chance to really settle down and the whole region may be able to expel one single breath of relief...

... and what do we have to give to Iran?

Only what they've wanted all this time - the right to enrich uranium.


Now why in God's name did I go through all that? Could be because I'm procrastinating cause I can't sleep and don't feel like doing homework.


P.S. The Associated Press article on the situation is actually quite good LINK . Balanced, detailed... and relatively fair, I think.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2008, 11:13:54 PM by Abraxas » Logged

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realityman
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« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2008, 11:26:29 AM »

Everything depends on making friends with Iran. Iran can try to calm down Hamas (or at least stop arming them - hopefully shutting them up tremendously),....

Making friends with Iran is highly unlikely.  Iran seeks to position itself as the Muslim (Middle East) Super Power... You do this by talking tough, taking a stand against democracy and the "evils" of Western values, AND, (of course) by threatening Israel's existence.

Hamas seeks Israel's destruction... plain and simple.  They tell us so almost daily through their leadership's actions and have even been so kind as to document this goal in their Covenant:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

They have no intention of accepting Israel on any borders... no matter how much territory Israel pulls back from.  They (Hamas) reject Israel's very existence whether on today's borders, borders "Fatah/Abbas" might agree to in peace talks,... '67 borders, even ...'48 borders.....  ADD to this equation the FACT that the Palestinian people ELECTED HAMAS into power.  Then ADD also to this equation that "other" Palestinian leadership (namely Abbas/Fatah) has refused to act against Hamas and Terrorism in any meaningful way .  (Yet Abbas is supposedly negotiating peace??  A peace he clearly is incapable of delivering as he's unwilling/unable to ACT against terrorism... a basic for any peace plan (??))

How quick the naive are to forget the lessons of Gaza (not even 3 years ago).. A unilateral withdrawal asking nothing of Palestinian leadership but to maintain security... Israel pulled out of numerous settlements, moved people, and troups, thus giving the Palestinians on the world's stage an opportunity to DEMONSTRATE that they could police their own streets, manage their own affairs,... to demonstrate that they were ready for statehood... AND WHAT DID ISRAEL AND THE WORLD GET IN RETURN??  violence, Fatah losing control of Gaza, a Terrorist organization (Hamas) taking control, and a daily barrage of rocket attacks aimed at random Israeli citizens.  Instead of taking the opportunity to DEMONSTRATE to the world their readiness and willingness to live in peace NEXT TO (not instead of) Israel, they confirmed that in any land given to their control would turn into a haven for more terror against Israel... LESSON LEARNED.

2 1/2 years ago on Sept. 13, 2005.. I made the following post on this forum:
Quote from: realityman
Do the Palestinians and their leadership recognize what's going on here?? Do they know that Israel has affectively put the "ball in their court"??

The Gaza withdrawal is not part of a peace settlement or any "agreement"... It is unilateral...meaning that Israel is giving the Palestinians a peace of what they've wanted and expecting nothing in return... Nothing, other than that they manage their own affairs and keep Gaza from becoming a hotbed for terrorism and violence. In other words, Israel (and the world which is watching) is giving the Palestinians an opportunity to prove that they can live in peace... and live in peace as a neighbor of Israel.

Will they rise to the occasion?? Or will we again here the excuses and blame being passed around?? Will Abbas see the light and actually act against Hamas, or will this be the beginning of Hamas gaining more and more significant power eventually rendering Abbas and the Palestinian authority effectively irrelevant??

Will this time be different(??) Or will violence and Terrorist groups reign in Gaza with the PA continuing to attempt to blame Israel for all that troubles them??

We will all be watching, and we will all be learning.


Quote
US praises Israel for troop pullout from Gaza
Mon Sep 12, 6:32 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - The United States on Monday hailed Israel's withdrawal from Gaza as an "historic moment" and urged the Palestinians and Israelis to use the success of the disengagement to move forward on other key issues.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice praised Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's courage and said the decision to withdraw from Gaza would both enhance Israel's security and allow the Palestinians to make progress in building the necessary institutions for a future state.

"We congratulate the Israelis and Palestinians on their effective coordination in recent months and particularly during the actual implementation of disengagement over the last four weeks," said Rice in a statement released in New York on the sidelines of U.N. meetings this week.

She hoped this cooperation would continue as the United States worked with the Israelis, the Palestinians and the broader international community to revitalize the Palestinian economy and helped Palestinian security forces restore law and order and fight terrorism.

Israeli troops pulled out of Gaza after 38 years of occupation following the evacuation of settlers last month from Gaza and parts of the West Bank.

The United States hopes the withdrawal will jump-start the Middle East peace process, but U.S. officials have said it is clear there are still constraints on both sides of the conflict.

Representatives from the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations, as part of the so-called Quartet, are meeting in New York next week to discuss the Middle East peace process and how to move forward.

A U.S. State Department official said the ball was in the Palestinians' court after the pullout, and he said Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas had to work hard to achieve security he promised after the pullout.

"What we need is for the momentum to continue and to make sure that the Palestinian Authority moves to establish the kind of institutional order and security that President Abbas has said he is committed to achieving," said the official

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050912/ts_nm/mideast_usa_dc_1

 2 1/2 years later WE CLEARLY HAVE OUR ANSWER. 

Actually, we had our answer to the prosects of near-term peace when the Palestinian people elected Hamas, an internationally recognized terrorist organization, into power.  The Palestinian's through their leadership and actions are clearly not ready for peace with Israel.  They're not ready to police themselves, and act against and their terrorism.  IF they can't police themselves and their terrorism, that leaves the job to those being terrorized.  If I had to worry about rockets landing on my head... ON A DAILY BASIS, I'd demand that my government act to protect me too... wouldn't anyone?

Peace and Hamas can't co-exist.  It's simple... So long as Hamas remains dedicated to Israel's destruction... and so long as they're basically allowed to terrorize Israel under the "watchful eye" of Fatah who "pretends" to be in control( but everyone knows really isn't), there can obviously be no meaningful permanent peace...

The Palestinian leadership's refusal to act decisively against Hamas (again... and again) clearly indicated that no meaningful peace will be achieved until either new Palestinian leadership is in place and widely accepted, or they (or outside forces) ACT DECISIVELY against Hamas stopping their terrorism and squelching them and their violent agenda.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2008, 01:47:30 PM by realityman » Logged
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