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Author Topic: Guided Evolution?  (Read 968 times)
Callum
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« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2008, 12:38:19 PM »

Yea the debate becomes rather superfluous when the theist can only agree that the naturalist has everything right, except for the 'fact' that 'thats how god intended it'.

What about Abiogenesis do the naturalists have right?

The principle, Patton.   What part of ANY scientific discovery/theory - the things you benefit from in your daily and professional life - has religion got right?Huh?     Start with flat earth and the geocentric universe.  Then move on to the humours.  Then try witchcraft and magic.  The divine right of kings is a good one, too.....     Face it, wherever religion has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.  So it is reduced to describing what is NOT. 
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2008, 01:54:26 PM »

Yea the debate becomes rather superfluous when the theist can only agree that the naturalist has everything right, except for the 'fact' that 'thats how god intended it'.

What about Abiogenesis do the naturalists have right?

The principle, Patton.   What part of ANY scientific discovery/theory - the things you benefit from in your daily and professional life - has religion got right?Huh?     Start with flat earth and the geocentric universe.  Then move on to the humours.  Then try witchcraft and magic.  The divine right of kings is a good one, too.....   
 

Not only did religion accept the earth was flat at one point in history but so did leading 'scientists'.  Mind you, bleeding and leeching were once common practice also.  Dont blame mans ignorance solely on religion.  Its a questionable cause fallacy.

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Face it, wherever religion has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.  So it is reduced to describing what is NOT. 

I suppose I could say the same thing about science.  Newtonian physics were sufficient pre-Einstein and yet they are ultimately wrong.  They have effectively described what is NOT.  Won't scientists fifty years from now talk about our wrong scientific assumptions?  For that reason, whenever science has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.
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I think, therefore I am loved

“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”

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Callum
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2008, 02:24:18 PM »

Face it, wherever religion has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.  So it is reduced to describing what is NOT. 

I suppose I could say the same thing about science.  Newtonian physics were sufficient pre-Einstein and yet they are ultimately wrong.  They have effectively described what is NOT.  Won't scientists fifty years from now talk about our wrong scientific assumptions?  For that reason, whenever science has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.

Nope.  Science says it is giving the best explanation at this point in time, based on what we have observed.  It cannot 'screw up'.    Religion claims unassailable TRUTH, it cannot BUT screw up.

BTW I'm not aware of the revelations of the gospel about quantum theory (that you appear to hold as holy writ...) but since THE BOOK has all the answers to everything, I'm sure that you can point me to the relevant verses (or you could even try Nostradamus).
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2008, 03:06:36 PM »

Face it, wherever religion has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.  So it is reduced to describing what is NOT. 

I suppose I could say the same thing about science.  Newtonian physics were sufficient pre-Einstein and yet they are ultimately wrong.  They have effectively described what is NOT.  Won't scientists fifty years from now talk about our wrong scientific assumptions?  For that reason, whenever science has tried to explain what actually IS, it screws it.

Nope.  Science says it is giving the best explanation at this point in time, based on what we have observed.  It cannot 'screw up'.    Religion claims unassailable TRUTH, it cannot BUT screw up.


You misunderstand me.  The point is that it is always wrong.  Perhaps it is the best explanation at a time, yet still inherently wrong.  The progression of theoretical science depends on the false assumptions of the previous generation.  Perhaps the material assumptions of religion are flawed but the metaphysical claims remain unscathed.

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BTW I'm not aware of the revelations of the gospel about quantum theory (that you appear to hold as holy writ...) but since THE BOOK has all the answers to everything, I'm sure that you can point me to the relevant verses (or you could even try Nostradamus).

Me neither  Wink

My view on scripture as the word of God differs from most Christians.  I am comfortable with the possibility of translational errors, writers bias, etc.  I am also comfortable with slippery slopes. 
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I think, therefore I am loved

“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”

-Minnesota Crime Commission
Callum
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2008, 03:37:10 PM »

You misunderstand me.  The point is that it is always wrong.  Perhaps it is the best explanation at a time, yet still inherently wrong.  The progression of theoretical science depends on the false assumptions of the previous generation. 

No I don't misunderstand.  I disagree.  The point is that the scientific method NEVER claims rightness ... yet.   Right and wrong do not enter into it.   There is only a greater approximation to the truth (i.e. the fit of what is described and what there is).  Possibly one day the fit will be perfect, possibly never.

'the false assumptions of previous generations' is actually a very limited and wrong way of putting it.  There are 'scientific revolutions' where the 'assumptions of the prv...etc' are totally repudiated and swept away.  As with any field of human endeavour, we proceed by imitation, repetition, amplification and revolution.  All stages are necessary in the development of the field.....


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Perhaps the material assumptions of religion are flawed but the metaphysical claims remain unscathed.

The material assumptions of religion are very flawed (I am ignorant of any religion that agrees in any way with the current accepted physical model of the world, as I said).   The metaphysical claims are not unscathed from this.  They are based NOT on pure rationalism, but on a rationalisation of what the originators of the metaphysical claims knew of the physical world.  This is possibly one of the reasons why religions resist so staunchly the incursions of naturalism into what they consider 'their' areas of expertise - mind, psychology, behaviour....
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IamMe
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« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2008, 12:17:09 PM »

I'd just like to make one short but crucial point here: Newtonian/classical physics are not wrong, but incomplete. Newton's formulae still provide a very good approximation of how our universe works, to a very high-degree of accuracy on the mid-level world we humans inhabit (i.e. neither micro nor 'giga'-scopic). That's why they form the basis of two subjects I am currently studying at school.
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