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IamMe
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« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2008, 02:57:31 PM » |
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This turning into a good thread (kiss of death!).
I think Fred and I are amazingly on the same track. Pornography is more pernicious and pervasive, mainly because it affects our relationships with a broad class of people i.e. the whole object class of our sexuality. Prostitution affects our relationships with a narrow class - i.e. the supplier of services. The effects are those of dehumanisation and objectification. These are generally considered undesirable views to hold of our fellow humans. And therefore society calls into action one of its correction mechanisms - shame. Biker is right in saying that this relies on a feeling of similarity - if you don't think like us you are "outside" the group. This is interesting because it has a very claose connection with attitudes to proz'n'porn. Outsidership is generally not a pleasant feeling - which is precisely what dehumanisation and objectification are all about. If you exclude the subjects of pictures/tales or the worker satisfying (hopefully) your needs from your normal relations with people, the you too will be excluded from society in a similar way.
And of course there is the counter mechanism of compassion, in two ways that I can immediately think of.... Firstly, one may feel sorry for someone whose normal sexual affairs are such that they need recourse to proz'n'porn, and given the circumstances may be inclined to moderate the condemnation. Secondly, we may feel compassion towards the workers involved. Despite the seductions of the porn industry, I get the impression that prostitution is not the sort of occupation that many people would engage in if some other were available. And seeing for example the 'playmates' of Hugh Heffner doesn't exactly convince me that they have made the most of their human gifts and abilities.
This last point of course broadens the topic into what do we consider to be 'right' in peoples activities. I have obviously suggested that human flourishing at an individual level is a primary criterion. Some may propose that the values that we as a culture use to measure this are themselves to be set aside and that simply satisfying our own inward-looking desires should be the 'touchstone'. This I think does not work in the case of p&p, since not even the most dyed in the wool libertarian would go for 'individualism' without something like the Harm Principle (Mill's 'do what you like EXCEPT cause harm to another'). The compassion mechanism prompts us to note that by making a market for sex-related activity we are preying on the survival needs of underclasses, and preventing them developping in other more self fulfilling ways. Even if we go 'up market' to Playboy or high-class hookers, where the glossy propaganda is that 'they could be anything - this girl is a qualified cancer surgeon - but they CHOOSE to do this' or 'look how much MONEY they make', I suggest that the subjects are still wasting their abilities.....
OK, there's a few issues here. First of all, the idea of exploitation, which you have not defined. Is exploitation using economic circumstances to induce someone to do something they otherwise would not? In that case, are binmen, sewage workers etc. not equally exploited? Incidentally, I would agree that this is exploitation, which is why I am a socialist. I disagree, however, with special pleading because you don't like the idea of prostitution. The second is the idea of 'wasting their abilities', which is true of so many people in so many jobs. Again hookers and porn-stars are not the only ones wasting their talents. Some might say they are using a different talent (though I don't consider lying on your back pretending to enjoy sex with a stranger a talent). Thirdly, the idea of objectification and dehumanization. The thing is, men naturally objectify everything - we deal best in a world of objects. Hence we have a tendency to objectify women (along with everything else). The link between objectification and porn/prostitution is spurious at best. Finally, you said something to BBW about porn/prostitution being harmful. To whom? You see, the thing is, unless one party is unwilling in the act (child porn, rape, sex trafficking etc.) the harm is self-inflicted (whatever harm there may be, which remains to be seen) and therefore is within a persons rights as owner of their own person. A large part of the shame issue has nothing to do with the acts themselves being malum in se but due to the influence throughout the years of the various churches, with their repressive attitude to sex. This stigma will disappear with time, just as the stigma regarding masturbation is disappearing (also, why is 'imagination porn' any better than real porn?)
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IamMe
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« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2008, 03:01:18 PM » |
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The fact you cannot walk into your dignified and professional place of work.....a place seen with respect, duty, honor and service.....and proclaim a desire or support for either one speaks volumes in itself.
I regularly argue for the legalization of prostitution when I get the chance, including while at school.
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IamMe
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« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2008, 03:24:01 PM » |
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Ok, here is why I ask the question: Prostitution always existed and was always moreless accepted if not a legal activity while pronography practicaly inexistant. In the Middle Age prostitution was an accepted practice even if moraly condemned. There was officialy 40 prostitutes for 1000 inhabitants in west european cities. This was huge by comparision to today in the same regions. But no one dared producing articraft openly pornographical. Masturbation was sin much worse than having a prostitute.
I wondered why. But it makes sens. Today more than ever.
Pornography is reaching out to much more poeple than prostitution, thus have a much bigger impact on society. It's cheap and you can find it everywhere. For real sex, you need to move a little bit more and, even more difficult find somebody to your taste.
Pornography also allows the exhibition of fantasms and situations much more difficult to realise in reality with real poeple. Or requires from the sexworker more degradating acts and less protection than a normal prostituted intercourse would. Prostituted intercourse are most of the time the same, based on local habits while pornography is virtualy without boundaries.
Not only pornography is affecting many more poeple, but it affects them with images much more sick and perverse than what a prostitute would do. I'm not saying prostitution is good. No it's also bad and in its modern form, often sordid, frustrating and degradating for both the worker and the client. What I'm saying is that pronography have more devastating effect on the minds than prostitution due to its larger audiance, cheap access, ubiquity and especialy perverse nature.
What exactly do you mean by "degraded", "sick" and "peverted"? (I assume you don't actually mean perverse, which is something totally different.)
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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2008, 07:56:12 PM » |
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Finally, you said something to BBW about porn/prostitution being harmful. To whom? You see, the thing is, unless one party is unwilling in the act (child porn, rape, sex trafficking etc.) the harm is self-inflicted (whatever harm there may be, which remains to be seen) and therefore is within a persons rights as owner of their own person.
A large part of the shame issue has nothing to do with the acts themselves being malum in se but due to the influence throughout the years of the various churches, with their repressive attitude to sex. This stigma will disappear with time, just as the stigma regarding masturbation is disappearing (also, why is 'imagination porn' any better than real porn?) Yeppers.
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2008, 09:52:57 PM » |
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Looking at it from another angle, and trying to compare prostitution to pornography from the girls side.
A prostitute is selling her services(sex) for a given price for a specified time. Wheras a girl doing pornography is selling her sex act viewing rights for a given price.
The difference between the two for the girl is extreme. A prostitute does the act, is paid and that is the end of it in most cases. She can start a new life without anyone knowing(assuming this is western countries and not slave prostitution).
A porn actress on the other hand, will have her sex act replayed over and over again, on all types of players(DVD, In ternet, PC) by different people in different states in different countries. For her, escape and starting a brand new life is almost impossible.She can be recognised everywhere.
Some porn actresses become famous and make a lot of money doing it. But what about all the others? How do they start a new life, have a family, children etc? They can be recognised at the supermarket, in airports, anywhere really. Even their children in later life can watch it if they desire. And people can be extremely cruel and judgemental.
So, while a prostitute may have the ability to escape from their profession and are only recognised by the guys they have slept with(and even the guy who is usually married is not going to make a big thing about recognising the prostitute in public), for the porn actress it is a lot harder.
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Patton
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« Reply #35 on: March 11, 2008, 03:12:46 AM » |
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The fact you cannot walk into your dignified and professional place of work.....a place seen with respect, duty, honor and service.....and proclaim a desire or support for either one speaks volumes in itself.
I regularly argue for the legalization of prostitution when I get the chance, including while at school. I guess New York Governer Spitzer wishes you were his boss. His ordeal kinda makes my point.........these things ruin lives.........
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Biker Dude
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« Reply #36 on: March 11, 2008, 05:51:19 AM » |
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I guess New York Governer Spitzer wishes you were his boss.
His ordeal kinda makes my point.........these things ruin lives.........
Only because white middle class America wants it that way. Which proves MY point.
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Who will watch the watchers?Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about?
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Patton
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« Reply #37 on: March 11, 2008, 10:08:07 AM » |
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I guess New York Governer Spitzer wishes you were his boss.
His ordeal kinda makes my point.........these things ruin lives.........
Only because white middle class America wants it that way. Which proves MY point. What are you saying? The Black middle class supports prostitution and pornography? Both Black and White upper class supports prostitution and pornography? Black and White lower class support prostitution and pornography? I think rejection of both these and the belief they are destructive to society run deeper than you believe......
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #38 on: March 11, 2008, 10:21:40 AM » |
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You're right Patton, ignorance runs deep.
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In religion and politics, people\\\\\\\\\'s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination. - Mark Twain 
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IamMe
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« Reply #39 on: March 11, 2008, 12:19:19 PM » |
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Looking at it from another angle, and trying to compare prostitution to pornography from the girls side.
A prostitute is selling her services(sex) for a given price for a specified time. Wheras a girl doing pornography is selling her sex act viewing rights for a given price.
The difference between the two for the girl is extreme. A prostitute does the act, is paid and that is the end of it in most cases. She can start a new life without anyone knowing(assuming this is western countries and not slave prostitution).
A porn actress on the other hand, will have her sex act replayed over and over again, on all types of players(DVD, In ternet, PC) by different people in different states in different countries. For her, escape and starting a brand new life is almost impossible.She can be recognised everywhere.
Some porn actresses become famous and make a lot of money doing it. But what about all the others? How do they start a new life, have a family, children etc? They can be recognised at the supermarket, in airports, anywhere really. Even their children in later life can watch it if they desire. And people can be extremely cruel and judgemental.
So, while a prostitute may have the ability to escape from their profession and are only recognised by the guys they have slept with(and even the guy who is usually married is not going to make a big thing about recognising the prostitute in public), for the porn actress it is a lot harder.
Yeah, but ultimately its the woman's choice. (Or the man's - there's gay porn too).
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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Perrin
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« Reply #40 on: March 11, 2008, 12:23:35 PM » |
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Looking at it from another angle, and trying to compare prostitution to pornography from the girls side.
A prostitute is selling her services(sex) for a given price for a specified time. Wheras a girl doing pornography is selling her sex act viewing rights for a given price.
The difference between the two for the girl is extreme. A prostitute does the act, is paid and that is the end of it in most cases. She can start a new life without anyone knowing(assuming this is western countries and not slave prostitution).
A porn actress on the other hand, will have her sex act replayed over and over again, on all types of players(DVD, In ternet, PC) by different people in different states in different countries. For her, escape and starting a brand new life is almost impossible.She can be recognised everywhere.
Some porn actresses become famous and make a lot of money doing it. But what about all the others? How do they start a new life, have a family, children etc? They can be recognised at the supermarket, in airports, anywhere really. Even their children in later life can watch it if they desire. And people can be extremely cruel and judgemental.
So, while a prostitute may have the ability to escape from their profession and are only recognised by the guys they have slept with(and even the guy who is usually married is not going to make a big thing about recognising the prostitute in public), for the porn actress it is a lot harder.
Yeah, but ultimately its the woman's choice. (Or the man's - there's gay porn too). What about for twins. It is the choice for one to appear in porn, yet the other still endures the stigma. Just playing devil's advocate at the moment. 
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IamMe
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« Reply #41 on: March 11, 2008, 12:35:57 PM » |
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Looking at it from another angle, and trying to compare prostitution to pornography from the girls side.
A prostitute is selling her services(sex) for a given price for a specified time. Wheras a girl doing pornography is selling her sex act viewing rights for a given price.
The difference between the two for the girl is extreme. A prostitute does the act, is paid and that is the end of it in most cases. She can start a new life without anyone knowing(assuming this is western countries and not slave prostitution).
A porn actress on the other hand, will have her sex act replayed over and over again, on all types of players(DVD, In ternet, PC) by different people in different states in different countries. For her, escape and starting a brand new life is almost impossible.She can be recognised everywhere.
Some porn actresses become famous and make a lot of money doing it. But what about all the others? How do they start a new life, have a family, children etc? They can be recognised at the supermarket, in airports, anywhere really. Even their children in later life can watch it if they desire. And people can be extremely cruel and judgemental.
So, while a prostitute may have the ability to escape from their profession and are only recognised by the guys they have slept with(and even the guy who is usually married is not going to make a big thing about recognising the prostitute in public), for the porn actress it is a lot harder.
Yeah, but ultimately its the woman's choice. (Or the man's - there's gay porn too). What about for twins. It is the choice for one to appear in porn, yet the other still endures the stigma. Just playing devil's advocate at the moment.  Its unfortunate, obviously, but in general identical twins do not own each-other's image rights.
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illy
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« Reply #42 on: March 11, 2008, 03:59:15 PM » |
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The fact you cannot walk into your dignified and professional place of work.....a place seen with respect, duty, honor and service.....and proclaim a desire or support for either one speaks volumes in itself.
I regularly argue for the legalization of prostitution when I get the chance, including while at school. I guess New York Governer Spitzer wishes you were his boss. His ordeal kinda makes my point.........these things ruin lives......... Lives can be ruined in many ways. Personally I think it shows the sad state of politics (and the public life in general) that the public is so overly concerned with everyone else's personal dealings and private downfalls. The fact that it can cause big problems for public figures is more a function of the reaction of the public than the actual moral implications of the act.
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illy
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illerino if youre not into the whole brevity thing
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« Reply #43 on: March 11, 2008, 04:18:06 PM » |
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As far as the OP is concerned, I don't find either pornography or prostitution to be "wrong" from a moral standpoint.
In practical terms, prostitution poses a greater threat to the public health more than pornography because of the spread of disease. Also, I would think the potential for exploitation is much greater in prostitution than in porn.
Based on those things I would say prostitution is 'worse' than pornography, but I would prefer not to prohibit either.
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Ammunition spitting is him, is it, you listening Littering written, it\\'s in slippers, get the rebel in him Sticking it with sinners, sizzlin\\' rhythm, verbally hit him Did he did it, or did he didn\\'t, admit it - Rugged Man - Give it Up
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Patton
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« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2008, 06:23:15 PM » |
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Lives can be ruined in many ways. I'm sure many of those are stigmatized in one way or another also. The fact that it can cause big problems for public figures is more a function of the reaction of the public than the actual moral implications of the act. It's nice to see so many "mature" and self-actualized opinions.....so...just who is this "public you speak of?" Certainly not those posting here....and...what CAUSES this "reaction of the public" IS the "act"......... Being in a position of leadership....hiring and firing.....writing evaluations for promotion, etc....I will tell you honesty, integrity, character and a lack of moral turpitude means something in the workplace......If I were to read a resume and under hobbies see...."Snowbarding, playing guitar, surfing porn and frequenting prostitutes"-vs-"Snowboarding, playing guitar, volunteering at the soup kitchen and building houses for Habitat For Humanity".....it's a slam dunk who gets the job. Is it OK for your 13 year old son to surf internet porn?......I assume he has your blessing?
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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