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IamMe
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« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2008, 01:59:15 PM » |
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IamMe: WOW! Do we see things from the opposite perspective or what?
Yup It never occurred to me that I would have to prove that porn is bad because the original question was, "Morally, What's worse..." However, if evil is too strong a word, I'm fine with terrible, bad, horrible or a synonym of your choice. By the way, I've never heard of a good addiction.
A good addiction: the addiction to the good feeling from doing charity work, maybe. My objection was not that evil was to strong a word - but rather the idea that viewing porn or having consensual sex that you happen to pay for is inherently immoral, which I duo not agree to. As far as picking up other people's trash is concerned, thats called a job. I've done it. Mopped floors, cleaned buildings, loaded trucks and cut grass for money, too. Never felt like I was prostitutiong myself because it was honest work that I agreed to do. My dignity was never at issue. I worked hard and either got promoted or got a better job. Its amazing how hard work and low pay can motivate you to find something better.
Prostitution is a 'job' also, and a valuable service. My point is that just because it is degrading (and some would say picking up other people's crap is degrading, just as some would say being paid for sex is not) does not mean we should not have the right to "degrade" ourselves if we wish, or that it is immoral to do so. Crime rates are higher where prostitution is rampant. If you don't believe me, Google it or simply go hang out with the prostitutes in your town. Also, prostitutes tend to become drug addicts, some would argue to escape the pain of their lives.
Like I said, this is largely due to involvement of violent criminals in the industry. Saying that the state provides a monoply because a crime is illegal is a perspective that i've never heard of before. Interesting concept. It is only a valid argument in terms of drugs, prostitution etc. - where the trade is not inherently wrong. Your last two pointss show how opposite we look at things. My moral compass is from the judeo/christian ethic. It allows me to make a determination about right and wrong. The same ethic also requires that I love my fellow man and not pass judgement on him. Its kind of hard to judge someone else for being wrong when you look in the spiritual mirror and see your own shortcommings.
Please, don't get the idea that I'm being judgemental, I'm not. For example, I do not see any excuse for whiskey to be legal and marijuana not to be. Neither do I believe that Islam, Hinduism or Bhuddism are inherently evil.
I gather that you do not like religion. My point was that people who represent different religious backgrounds could all agree that both pornography and prostitution are wrong.
Its not the lack of judeo/christian morals that affects my view, in case you are thinking that this is an inevitable consequence of my atheism. Most atheists would disagree with me also. So, a question for you: Is either pornography or prostitution wrong?
Not necessarily. Non-consensual porn or prostitution, involving rape, or children or human trafficking is wrong. Aside from that, no.
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2008, 02:46:48 PM » |
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The money hand-off is wrong. But as Viv. said, many factors surrounding the transaction which can make it worse, less bad or much worse. These factors (drug, alcoholism, mafia, human trafficking, deseases etc) must be addressed rather, or more urgently, than prostitution itself.
I also agree with her that thanks to the lack of emotional involvement, a prostitute is less a danger for a married couple than a misstress. Under two conditions however: that the man doesn't fall in love with the prostitute (crazy but I'm sure that happens) and that his whife understand the nature of such transaction and she would have to be extremely tolerant anyway. It's also a matter of case-by-case. One situation can be acceptable, not another.
In this respect, I consider that the act of masturbating with porn is akind to using prostitute: A man can start to ignore his real sex life with his whife in favor of a virtual one. The danger is even greater that virtual sex is easy. Much easier than go for whores. In both case there is a problem in the couple's sexual life and both has to think about a solution to solve this problem instead of blaming the immoral actions.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) 
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IamMe
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« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2008, 02:50:23 PM » |
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The money hand-off is wrong. Why?
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2008, 02:55:05 PM » |
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ImMe (and others)
What's worse? Working in the porn industry or in the prostitution industry?
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) 
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Biker Dude
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« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2008, 03:02:33 PM » |
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Fred, why are those your only options?
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Who will watch the watchers?Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about?
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Leo
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« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2008, 08:02:11 PM » |
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In this respect, I consider that the act of masturbating with porn is akind to using prostitute: A man can start to ignore his real sex life with his whife in favor of a virtual one. The danger is even greater that virtual sex is easy. Much easier than go for whores. In both case there is a problem in the couple's sexual life and both has to think about a solution to solve this problem instead of blaming the immoral actions.
I think any guy who prefers to use his hand when he can have real sex has a real problem. You are right that the couple has a problem with their sex life and I don't think porn is to blame.
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Jericoacoara
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« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2008, 09:55:59 PM » |
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I think any guy who prefers to use his hand when he can have real sex has a real problem.
One in the hand is always worth two in the bush  Seriously, I know what you are saying. But I could imagine that many men who use pornography do it for fantasy purposes. They are married with children or middle aged or not attractive etc. So for them, things that happen in porn movies would never happen to them in real life, so they use porn as a kind of escapism. And many people use general movies, horror, action etc as escapism. The question of whether porn damages an existing relationship is a valid one. Not sure of the answer to that.
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The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
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Viv.
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« Reply #112 on: March 24, 2008, 03:52:19 AM » |
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The two are interlinked in any case. OK, here we go. What do you think is more demeaning to women, being forced to go about their business covered from head to foot and treated as a possession for a man's ego, or being encouraged to go about like a prostitute for everyman's enjoyment? There are threads here in which people express outrage at the lack of civil liberties for women in Muslim countries. These Muslim women are only being abused by one man. In western culture it could be said that women are abused by large numbers of men who couldn't care less about their civil rights so long as they can have a leer at a naked woman. You may say these women have the right to choose whether to be photographed naked or not and that they're making a living. Do you seriously think any woman who is right in the head would choose that life? These women therefore, are likely to be low intellect, from underprivileged backgrounds, have fallen on hard times, have no prospect of making a decent living, have no idea how to protect themselves and are abused and you should reconsider how you view them. In a civilised society the strong protect the weak and these women are unprotected. By leering over their pictures, you are encouraging their abuse: The global sex industry merchandises women and children in a variety of ways--through prostitution, sex trafficking, sex tourism, the mail-order bride trade, and pornography. These practices of sexual exploitation are interconnected and inextricable from each other, and most sexually exploited women and children are subjected to multiple forms of sexual exploitation. For example, women and children are often recruited or sold into domestic prostitution and then trafficked into brothels overseas. While being prostituted, women and children are often pressured or coerced into posing for pornography, which increasingly is trafficked internationally. Exploitation in "sexual entertainment" (strip clubs, topless bars, etc.) often precedes or accompanies exploitation in sex trafficking or prostitution. Customers of sexually exploited women and children often buy access to them in a variety of sexually exploitative contexts, while pimps, procurers, and traffickers profit from the different practices of sexual exploitation interchangeably. Indeed, one of the motivating forces for trafficking is the demand of prostitution customers for more "exotic" and compliant sexual playthings. It is impossible, as the drafters of the 1949 Convention understood, to separate sex trafficking from the exploitation of the prostitution of others. http://action.web.ca/home/catw/readingroom.shtml?x=16756&AA_EX_Session=26cd56b6bd05096ae264d04492a94254
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Factinista
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« Reply #113 on: March 24, 2008, 06:22:05 AM » |
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In western culture it could be said that women are abused by large numbers of men who couldn't care less about their civil rights so long as they can have a leer at a naked woman.
If you seriously believe that men in Western society do not care about the civil rights of women then you are completely wrong. It took a while for them to get sufferage and they still don't have equal pay but men DO care. To say otherwise is purly sexist You may say these women have the right to choose whether to be photographed naked or not and that they're making a living. Do you seriously think any woman who is right in the head would choose that life?
many women willingly choose such a life and achieve success
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Viv.
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« Reply #114 on: March 24, 2008, 10:05:06 AM » |
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In western culture it could be said that women are abused by large numbers of men who couldn't care less about their civil rights so long as they can have a leer at a naked woman.
If you seriously believe that men in Western society do not care about the civil rights of women then you are completely wrong. It took a while for them to get sufferage and they still don't have equal pay but men DO care. To say otherwise is purly sexist You may say these women have the right to choose whether to be photographed naked or not and that they're making a living. Do you seriously think any woman who is right in the head would choose that life?
many women willingly choose such a life and achieve success I hope that they do care and perhaps I have been a little ferocious in the quotes you highlight.  But I have discussed this issue with a few men and the idea that viewing porn is supporting the abuse of women, as demonstrated beyond question by that article, seems to be completely alien and a big surprise to the majority of them. I am not sure how these comments correlate...men care about the civil rights of women/women willingly choose that life...is that not sticking your head in the sand? Men who care about the civil rights of women might support women to escape those industries. Patronising porn whilst pretending it is not harmful to women supports abuse IMO. Those who enter that line of work are many things. Happy, fulfilled, respected, successful, not in the list IMO...conned, unprepared, uninformed, coerced, disadvantaged, gullible, vulnerable, addicted, read the report, what percentage do you really think end living the good life? Success is minimal or imagined...
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IamMe
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« Reply #115 on: March 24, 2008, 01:08:48 PM » |
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ImMe (and others)
What's worse? Working in the porn industry or in the prostitution industry?
(You didn't answer my question.) I don't believe that either is wrong per se (and I could see myself working in either if I needed money.)
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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IamMe
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« Reply #116 on: March 24, 2008, 02:33:28 PM » |
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The two are interlinked in any case. OK, here we go. What do you think is more demeaning to women, being forced to go about their business covered from head to foot and treated as a possession for a man's ego, or being encouraged to go about like a prostitute for everyman's enjoyment? There are threads here in which people express outrage at the lack of civil liberties for women in Muslim countries. These Muslim women are only being abused by one man. In western culture it could be said that women are abused by large numbers of men who couldn't care less about their civil rights so long as they can have a leer at a naked woman. You may say these women have the right to choose whether to be photographed naked or not and that they're making a living. Do you seriously think any woman who is right in the head would choose that life? These women therefore, are likely to be low intellect, from underprivileged backgrounds, have fallen on hard times, have no prospect of making a decent living, have no idea how to protect themselves and are abused and you should reconsider how you view them. In a civilised society the strong protect the weak and these women are unprotected. By leering over their pictures, you are encouraging their abuse: The global sex industry merchandises women and children in a variety of ways--through prostitution, sex trafficking, sex tourism, the mail-order bride trade, and pornography. These practices of sexual exploitation are interconnected and inextricable from each other, and most sexually exploited women and children are subjected to multiple forms of sexual exploitation. For example, women and children are often recruited or sold into domestic prostitution and then trafficked into brothels overseas. While being prostituted, women and children are often pressured or coerced into posing for pornography, which increasingly is trafficked internationally. Exploitation in "sexual entertainment" (strip clubs, topless bars, etc.) often precedes or accompanies exploitation in sex trafficking or prostitution. Customers of sexually exploited women and children often buy access to them in a variety of sexually exploitative contexts, while pimps, procurers, and traffickers profit from the different practices of sexual exploitation interchangeably. Indeed, one of the motivating forces for trafficking is the demand of prostitution customers for more "exotic" and compliant sexual playthings. It is impossible, as the drafters of the 1949 Convention understood, to separate sex trafficking from the exploitation of the prostitution of others. http://action.web.ca/home/catw/readingroom.shtml?x=16756&AA_EX_Session=26cd56b6bd05096ae264d04492a94254That is seriously patronising to women: the idea that they are not capable of deciding for themselves whether they want to be a prostitute or not, whether or not they consider it demeaning (it actually doesn't matter what we think) and whether or not they want to exercise their rights as human beings and custodians of their own bodies to engage in consensual sexual activity that happens to have a price tag. You have essentially said that these women are too stupid, or too poor to make these decisions for themselves. This was the dominant view in the pre-suffrage era - I would have thought we'd moved on. Sex trafficking and child abuse are different issues entirely. Sex trafficking is slavery (and is wrong because slavery is wrong, not because prostitution is wrong) and child abuse is wrong because it is child abuse (not because it is prostitution). I have used porn - and I totally resent the accusation that I am some sort of abusor. Part of the reason that I advocate legalising prostitution is to protect the women involved. Once it is legal, you can regulate it: you can ensure the women have access to checks for STDs (and provide ways for clients to check too, to stop the spread of STIs and STDs), give them the statutory right to form trade unions, put in place inspectors to ensure they have a decent work environment and to ensure no human trafficking is going on. The present situation (where it's illegal, but the police kind of tolerate it) only plays into the hands of violent criminals and contributes to a situation where women are abused.
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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Patton
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« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2008, 03:18:35 AM » |
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That is seriously patronising to women: the idea that they are not capable of deciding for themselves whether they want to be a prostitute or not, whether or not they consider it demeaning (it actually doesn't matter what we think) and whether or not they want to exercise their rights as human beings and custodians of their own bodies to engage in consensual sexual activity that happens to have a price tag.
You have essentially said that these women are too stupid, or too poor to make these decisions for themselves. I find this intresting from someone who essentially advocates a government controlled socialist state for things like healthcare........BECAUSE of the idea that people "are not capable of deciding for themselves" the state of their circumstances....... Is this to be interpreted as a flat out denial that the circumstances that leads one into prostitution are the same ones that lead to alcoholism, drug abuse, criminal behavior, homlessness and poverty? The very things you advocate the NEED for socialized healthcare? So, I guess little girls grow up and say "I want to be a whore when I grow up"........but don't say "I want to be homeless or drug addicted or alcoholic or poor or a criminal?" Can't it be a whore is a whore because she sells ALL she has in order to survive? Some choice.I have used porn - and I totally resent the accusation that I am some sort of abusor. Funny......alcoholics say the very same thing. Perhaps you can list the virtues of pornography?
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« Last Edit: March 25, 2008, 03:20:35 AM by Patton »
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #118 on: March 25, 2008, 09:53:00 AM » |
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The idea of pornography "abusing" women is quite hysterical. With the exception of the sub-genres where people are literally being abused (I'm sure I don't have to go into great detail of what those are), there is nothing wrong with it. First off, for all you feminists, stop acting like women are the only ones in the movies. I'll take a quote from Orgazmo (don't watch it if you're on the other side of the fence here): Lisa: You pig, you're responsible for degrading all of those women. Clark: Men are equally degradable in pornographic films. Lisa: Men are always in a position of power. Rodgers: They're the ones who want the product so bad, they're the victims. Lisa: Well, it exploits men by exploiting women. Clark: Hence, it exploits people. Not to mention how many pornographic movies there are in this world where women can't be found in any scene. This all goes for prostitution as well. So I don't want to hear anything about how women get treated and the rest of that nonsense, because it doesn't make any sense. And second, Patton: Funny......alcoholics say the very same thing.
Perhaps you can list the virtues of pornography? Who says these occupations are virtuous? Would you say an alcoholic is a morally wrong person, or that he has a disease? Would someone who watches porn all day a pervert, or does he have an addiction? And what of someone who has a drink every now and then? Is he morally wrong? What about someone who opens a Playboy every now and then?
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In religion and politics, people\\\\\\\\\'s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination. - Mark Twain 
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Viv.
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« Reply #119 on: March 25, 2008, 10:57:14 AM » |
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The idea of pornography "abusing" women is quite hysterical. With the exception of the sub-genres where people are literally being abused (I'm sure I don't have to go into great detail of what those are), there is nothing wrong with it.
First off, for all you feminists, stop acting like women are the only ones in the movies. I'll take a quote from Orgazmo (don't watch it if you're on the other side of the fence here):
Lisa: You pig, you're responsible for degrading all of those women. Clark: Men are equally degradable in pornographic films. Lisa: Men are always in a position of power. Rodgers: They're the ones who want the product so bad, they're the victims. Lisa: Well, it exploits men by exploiting women. Clark: Hence, it exploits people.
Not to mention how many pornographic movies there are in this world where women can't be found in any scene. This all goes for prostitution as well. So I don't want to hear anything about how women get treated and the rest of that nonsense, because it doesn't make any sense. You feminists? Sigh...label me then, go on. The study details how abuse is formed and how it progresses. You can read all of it if you are interested, but expect you will not as the guilt trip may not appeal to you male chauvinists  Thank you for posting Organza or w/e his handle is...Although I am one of few here who does not "use" porn and so I do not know him as you do, it seems he may not be such a respected or reliable source as a Presentation to the Special Seminar on Trafficking, Prostitution and the Global Sex Industry, of the UN Working Group on Contemporary Forms of Slavery...  ..so I will go with their assessment... I am not bashing you, wigs. But I think there is this other view of porn which men do not want to accept... all I can do is put it to you and ask you to consider.
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