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Author Topic: Moraly, What's worse: Pornography or Prostitution?  (Read 5141 times)
bringbackwigs
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« Reply #150 on: March 26, 2008, 11:51:48 AM »

If prostitution was legal, safe and clean, then yes I would. For example, there are some very nice brothels were it's legal in this country, and most employees there have husbands/boyfriends. I would think that any girl who does that for a living is pretty emotionally detached.

And I would marry a porn star as well. Not like any of it matters though, since personal opinions shouldn't be considered in the first place. But to answer your question, yes.
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« Reply #151 on: March 26, 2008, 12:08:49 PM »

So, since what you believe happens to be the standard, it's right?

Oh, believe me when I say it is not just me.......

Why do you think it "happens to be the standard?"

Those entrusted with "the standard" havn't changed "the standard" for how long now?
I find this argument to be singularly unconvincing.  I am sure plenty of people sat around at one point and said 'well, slavery has been "the standard" for a long time now.  Who are we to go against what the majority wants?'.  It didn't make it right.  It is cowardice to me. 
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« Reply #152 on: March 26, 2008, 12:41:14 PM »

If prostitution was legal, safe and clean, then yes I would. For example, there are some very nice brothels were it's legal in this country, and most employees there have husbands/boyfriends. I would think that any girl who does that for a living is pretty emotionally detached.

And I would marry a porn star as well. Not like any of it matters though, since personal opinions shouldn't be considered in the first place. But to answer your question, yes.
How is personal opinion irrelevant? Everyone here is only posting personal opinion.
It is a way to express a point, as my previous post, which you avoided by redirecting.  But I'm finding trying to figure you out more engrossing than the topic. Tongue 
Anyway...




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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #153 on: March 26, 2008, 12:45:52 PM »

Something about the way you worded that doesn't make sense to me. I'm having trouble following.
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« Reply #154 on: March 26, 2008, 01:31:59 PM »

So, since what you believe happens to be the standard, it's right?

Oh, believe me when I say it is not just me.......

Why do you think it "happens to be the standard?"

Those entrusted with "the standard" havn't changed "the standard" for how long now?
I find this argument to be singularly unconvincing.  I am sure plenty of people sat around at one point and said 'well, slavery has been "the standard" for a long time now.  Who are we to go against what the majority wants?'.  It didn't make it right.  It is cowardice to me. 

Let's see.....you guys say P&P are harmless, moral, OK, just fine-and-dandy....and then compare it to slavery?

You seem to forget the founding fathers had heated debates about the status of slavery....but chose to table them for the sake of the Union....but the subject was to be revisited once the issue of succession from England was dealt with....and it was.

No such discussion happens with regards to P&P....except with you guys behind anonymous computer terminals..........Oh, and Larry Flynt....standard bearer for the cause.
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« Reply #155 on: March 26, 2008, 01:49:26 PM »

It was not a comparison to slavery per sey as much as it is an indictment of it being ok simply because it is 'the standard' and because the majority is ok with it.  I thought that was a pretty simply analogy.  Either I am not being clear or you are intentionally misconstruing my point because it suits your view to do so.  But if you wish to argue about slavery, have at it. 

And as for me being anonymous behind my computer terminal, do you want to know my name and address?  While I fail to see how this would help make your point any more valid, we can be non-anonymous if you desire.  After all, you are just as anonymous behind your computer terminal, and you are arguing against.  So obviously stating who you are is not a requirement for the pious either. 
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« Reply #156 on: March 26, 2008, 03:52:54 PM »

.....it is an indictment of it being ok simply because it is 'the standard' and because the majority is ok with it. I thought that was a pretty simply analogy.  Either I am not being clear or you are intentionally misconstruing my point because it suits your view to do so.  But if you wish to argue about slavery, have at it.

Actually, the majority wasn't "OK with it" except in some Southern states (in which slavery was used for labor-which is certainly not a statement on it's morality)....and it was on the wane even before we were a nation, which is why I refuted your statement....times were changing in England in 1772 with the Mansfield case, and here in America, several prominent "founding fathers" were on record before our Independence as being against slavery:

The Society for the Relief of Free Negroes Unlawfully Held in Bondage was the first American abolition society, formed April 14, 1775, in Philadelphia, primarily by Quakers who had strong religious objections to slavery. The society ceased to operate during the Revolution and the British occupation of Philadelphia; it was reorganized in 1784, with Benjamin Franklin as its first president.[5]

The first article published in the United States advocating the emancipation of slaves and the abolition of slavery was written by Thomas Paine. Titled "African Slavery in America", it appeared on March 8, 1775 in the Postscript to the Pennsylvania Journal and Weekly Advertiser, more popularly known as The Pennsylvania Magazine, or American Museum.[7]


Quote
Either I am not being clear or you are intentionally misconstruing my point because it suits your view to do so.  But if you wish to argue about slavery, have at it

No, you were quite clear in saying slavery was "OK", and I'm saying it wasn't...even before we were a nation it was on it's way out...

Since prostitution existed then (and centuries before), why not use it as an example?

If slavery is worse than prostitution, and slavery laws were overturned, why havn't prostitution laws?

Quote
And as for me being anonymous behind my computer terminal, do you want to know my name and address?.

Of course not.....I just find it funny advocates for prostitution and pornography are anonymous except for the Larry Flynts out there....somehow....advocates for changing laws in these industries remain hidden in dimly lit rooms and back alleys, that's all.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 03:55:10 PM by Patton » Logged

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« Reply #157 on: March 26, 2008, 06:40:55 PM »

*sigh*

You are missing the point.  Again. 
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« Reply #158 on: March 26, 2008, 08:31:23 PM »

*sigh*

You are missing the point.  Again. 

I think I know exactly what your thought process is. Frustrating.
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« Reply #159 on: March 27, 2008, 08:19:03 AM »

I think the 'problem' here is that some people find it hard to think in terms of 'the form' of an argument - they just want to grapple witrh the argument itself.

What is being said is that there were things which were 'the standard' way of thinking about a subject - and these have changed.  In moral terms, there was the idea of 'manifest destiny' which saw the ethnic cleansing of vast tracts of land - the majority accepted it then, the majority don't now.  In medical terms, standard view was that the body was a balance of four humours and one's temperament was determined by which humour was dominant - so I could be sanguine (jolly) because of excess blood, someone else could be choleric, etc - the majority believed it then, the majority don't now, in current particle physics we actually have a Standard View (so named with not a little knowingness - it will almost certainly change).

Whenever we are 'on the cusp' of a change of view, there are always angry voices for and agin the old/new.  Some are so wedded (or even welded) to 'standard' views that the very thought of examining invokes apoplexy.   This is irritating and frustrating for those who wish to see change, but is a fairly essentially human situation:  changing fundamental views is costly in terms of mental energy, and often is for little gain to the individual.  We are 'designed' (by evolution...) to be conservative, but also to be capable of change where it is obviously to 'our' advantage...   Understanding that the 'our' here refers to the whole of humanity rather than just self is another tricky area.... Cheesy
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« Reply #160 on: March 27, 2008, 11:45:43 AM »

Healthcare is an entitlement - a right.

Can I see the statute that makes it a "right" or "entitlement?"

Lacking that, it will remain an opinion.....and a complete deflation of the argument.

I won't answer this because it's off-topic.

Quote
Quote
Little girls don't grow up saying "I want to pick up trash for a living!" or "I want to work in a dump" or "I want to unclog blockages in sewage sytems" etc.

What's your point?

What is illegal or immoral about anything you listed?

Nothing, which is precisely my point. Just because children don't grow up wanting to do the job (it's very rare children grow up wanting to be anything other than an astronaut or a ninja) doesn't make it immoral

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- she rents out her genitals. (Their hers, she can do what she wants with them)

Nice tactic.....like putting lipstick on a pig.

What does that mean? Are you saying prostitutes are animals with make-up?

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...not all prostitutes are homeless drug addicts who can't get any other job. Ask Elliot Spitzer.

I'll go out on a limb and say the "homeless drug addicts who can't get any other job" VASLTLY outnumber the whores who service Governers.

The scale is tilted a little more to my point.

Yes, there are many homeless drug addicts who are prostitutes. That doesn't make it wrong. Drug addicts are still people who are responsible for their own choices.
 
The fact that the occupation is dominated by the poor and drug addicted is precisely because it is illegal and stigmatised. It is circular reasoning to argue that this justifies making it illegal.

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-Provides employment.
-Provides titillation.

Nice try.

vir·tue       /ˈvɜrtʃu/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[vur-choo] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.
2.   conformity of one's life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.
3.   chastity; virginity: to lose one's virtue.
4.   a particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, theological virtue.
5.   a good or admirable quality or property: the virtue of knowing one's weaknesses.
6.   effective force; power or potency: a charm with the virtue of removing warts.
7.   virtues, an order of angels. Compare angel (def. 1).
8.   manly excellence; valor.
—Idioms
9.   by or in virtue of, by reason of; because of: to act by virtue of one's legitimate authority.
10.   make a virtue of necessity, to make the best of a difficult or unsatisfactory situation.


The "employment" is illegal and violates Federal and State tax and employment law......and i don't think "titillation" warrants an answer.

Oh wow, the dictionary enters the fray. Roll Eyes

Illegal does not mean immoral (want me to look those up for you).
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« Reply #161 on: March 27, 2008, 11:50:15 AM »

You seem surprised there are people that exist who believe in something called morality.....

Do you place limitations on what is acceptable and unnacceptable behavior?

Then you suffer from it too......your argument is just where to draw the lines.

Reasonable people say that behavior that impinges on other people's rights is immoral - otherwise it is simply a matter of personal choice.
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« Reply #162 on: April 04, 2008, 07:18:22 AM »

Human history has been through the revolving door of declining morals before...all one needs to do is point to any of those civilations as a example of what can happen...."plenty of ideas that were not mainstream at one point are accepted now" is fine for things like TV, radio, automobiles and space travel.....but wanton solicitation of sexual depravity has been tried before with results in the destruction of those societies.


Las Vegas society apears to be doing just fine, well in fact
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« Reply #163 on: April 16, 2008, 02:48:40 PM »

Quote from: Fredledingue on 23-03-2008, 03:46:48
The money hand-off is wrong.
Quote from: ImMe
Why?

It's like I accept to be your friend: it's only $100 per day. Cool
It's wrong because it's much better without money.

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Quote from: Fredledingue on 23-03-2008, 03:46:48
What's worse? Working in the porn industry or in the prostitution industry?
Quote from: ImMe
Fred, why are those your only options?

Because I don't want want this type of answer:
(Sorry I didn't respnd earlier, I was away for 3 weeks.)
Quote from: ImMe
I don't believe that either is wrong per se (and I could see myself working in either if I needed money.)

Everybody knows or feels that both are not good nor totaly wrong etc
What I want to do is to put back to back the two practices.

If I accept answers in between, there will be no debate. And as a matter of fact I see that it's very difficult to get poeple talking about porn VERSUS prostitution (wether you find both OK or that others finds both wrong doesn't interrest me much).
 
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Quote from: Leo
I think any guy who prefers to use his hand when he can have real sex has a real problem. You are right that the couple has a problem with their sex life and I don't think porn is to blame.

Leo, you are too young to know how a man who see his whife getting older and older may feel when he see glamour models still as young as 20 years before.
I'm not yet (Thanks God!!!) in this case but when I see whives of men barely older than me, I'm frightened.
But porn is accelerating this process. IMO many men would honor their whife much longer in their life if they were not distracted or illusioned by porn.
-------------------
Quote from: Patton
Can't it be a whore is a whore because she sells ALL she has in order to survive?

I don't think so. In a given society in a given country there is a majority of girls who doesn't go prostitute and a very small minority who does. Obviousely most those who don't, don't all die of starvation.
(At least not in extreme poverty situations.)

The problem is that when a woman start to be a whore, she fall in trap where she doesn't not have choice anymore, mostly because she un-learned how to work normaly. The most difficult for them after years of doing only that, is to stop and get a normal job.

-------------------

Quote from: Orgazmo
Lisa: You pig, you're responsible for degrading all of those women.
Clark: Men are equally degradable in pornographic films.
Lisa: Men are always in a position of power.
Rodgers: They're the ones who want the product so bad, they're the victims.
Lisa: Well, it exploits men by exploiting women.
Clark: Hence, it exploits people.
Quote from: Viv
Thank you for posting Organza or w/e his handle is...Although I am one of few here who does not "use" porn and so I do not know him as you do, it seems he may not be such a respected or reliable source as a Presentation to the Special Seminar on Trafficking, Prostitution and the Global Sex Industry, of the UN Working Group on Contemporary Forms of Slavery... ..so I will go with their assessment...

I don't think that the guy who buy a porn magazine is to blame for the porn industry abuses (if any). The magazine publisher is.
Why? Because when we buy something like that, we suppose that all models are there by their own will and consent and know what they are doing and earn tons of money doing that.

IMO, the number of men who would enjoy (or even be able to get a hard-on) with a forced prostitute or forced porn while they know or notice it's beeing forced on, is very small. Yet those who enjoy that already feed a large portion of this industry as do pedophiles and other types of clients but they don't represent men in general. IMO, most men want happy and consenting partners.

So when we heard of seminars on sex trafficking etc, few men in the West would feel concerned or guilty because few of tem have made use of it. Even those who made use of prostitution couldn't decide of anything as the sexual intercourse is concerned. The prostitute is dictating everything from A to Z, what clothes she chooses to keep on and to take off, the posititon, the speed, the time, absolutely everything and the guy has obey and be content with that or go fuck himself because dozen of clients are lining up outside. That's the way it is in western countries.

In some areas of the world it may be different, but then, go ask the men there.
And even there, I think most of the men would be naturaly disgusted at forced sex labor.
The image of the terrorized teenage girls almost crying is not very exiting to us, believe me.
--------------------
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« Reply #164 on: April 16, 2008, 04:00:14 PM »


Quote from: bringbackwigs on 25-03-2008, 00:46:53
Because the fact that prostitution is illegal and looked down upon pushes it into places where things like slavery are more likely to occur. There's a lot less slaves in accounting. So that part of it has nothing to do with prostitution in itself, therefore prostitution cannot be called morally wrong due to it.

Quote from: Viv
It is legal in Holland.  They currently cannot staff the brothels and this has caused an increase in human trafficking.

I assume, although I don't know for sure, that this staff shortage is because prostitution is not something women want to do even when it's legalised.

Not because women don't want to do it but because there are more men who want pay sex than women ready to give it.
If that was a valid option many men would gleefuly give 100 euros or 200 euros or even more for a few minutes of sex.
However, use of prostitution is often not a valid option because girls are too busy, too old, not nice and don't do sex as men would like.
The more there are girls on the "market", the less they are busy, old and difficult but you can bring in thousands and thousands of prostitutes before the offer meets the demand. It's an infinite market. Unfullfillable.
I mean, trafficking doesn't exist because prostitution is legal or because demand is higher. Demand is not higher because it's legal. Legal or not, demand is infinite, and therefore cannot be higher or grow. Traficking remains illegal, after all. It exists because it's organised and protected.
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