Buzz
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« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2008, 08:38:12 PM » |
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The problem I have is that what passes for discourse on TV and radio is starkly limited by the establishment. Limbaugh, Olbermann, O'Reilly, Franken, etc. are simply hacks, in most cases partisan hacks. True non-conformists, either of the left or right, are shut out. Where are people like Alexander Cockburn, Joe Sobran, Steve Sailer, Jeffrey St. Clair and others like them? Perhaps the establishment doesn't want their messages out, eh?
OswaldTheOsprey
I have heard you equate right wing pundits like Rush and Bill to left wing pundits like Al and Kieth time and time again but you never give any evidence what so ever to show that they are, in fact, equal. Not even once. Why is that? Al Franken and Kieth Olbermann are not hacks like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'reilly are. I actually listen to or watch all 4 of these pundits and know for a fact that you are wrong. When I listen to Rush or Bill I see and hear all kinds of BS all the time. And I am not talking about differences of opinion. I am talking about outright lies and misinformation. But when i watch or listen to Al and Kieth I do not find hardly any instances of anything even close to the garbage coming from the right. And not only have I never heard any examples from you I have also never seen anything from anyone on the right concerning Olbermann. Not ever, not even once. And every thing I have seen about Al were just a few minor errors in a couple of Al's books. Never anything concerning his radio show. The only thing I have ever seen is just the same kind of unsubstantiated slander that I see coming from you. Now if you want to back up your opinions with some facts I would love to see what you got. I detest them all just as I detest both major parties. It is not a case of being equal or unequal, although I doubt a hyperpartisan like yourself would understand. You see things in terms of bad evil GOP vs. pure divine Democratic where as I consider both to be quite sinister. All of the TV, radio pundits, with the honorable exceptions of Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs, are worthless. None of the rest show the slightest understanding of Americanist values or ideals. All support militarism but disagree perhaps on where to drop the bombs, all support international capitalism which provides them all with lavish incomes and lifestyles suitable to their monstrous egos. What they don't like is each other and on that I can agree with them. OswaldTheOsprey Somehow I knew you wouldn't be able to come up with anything that wasn't just more of your oddball social fascist rhetoric. No surprise. |
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2008, 08:43:25 PM » |
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The problem I have is that what passes for discourse on TV and radio is starkly limited by the establishment. Limbaugh, Olbermann, O'Reilly, Franken, etc. are simply hacks, in most cases partisan hacks. True non-conformists, either of the left or right, are shut out. Where are people like Alexander Cockburn, Joe Sobran, Steve Sailer, Jeffrey St. Clair and others like them? Perhaps the establishment doesn't want their messages out, eh?
OswaldTheOsprey
I have heard you equate right wing pundits like Rush and Bill to left wing pundits like Al and Kieth time and time again but you never give any evidence what so ever to show that they are, in fact, equal. Not even once. Why is that? Al Franken and Kieth Olbermann are not hacks like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'reilly are. I actually listen to or watch all 4 of these pundits and know for a fact that you are wrong. When I listen to Rush or Bill I see and hear all kinds of BS all the time. And I am not talking about differences of opinion. I am talking about outright lies and misinformation. But when i watch or listen to Al and Kieth I do not find hardly any instances of anything even close to the garbage coming from the right. And not only have I never heard any examples from you I have also never seen anything from anyone on the right concerning Olbermann. Not ever, not even once. And every thing I have seen about Al were just a few minor errors in a couple of Al's books. Never anything concerning his radio show. The only thing I have ever seen is just the same kind of unsubstantiated slander that I see coming from you. Now if you want to back up your opinions with some facts I would love to see what you got. I detest them all just as I detest both major parties. It is not a case of being equal or unequal, although I doubt a hyperpartisan like yourself would understand. You see things in terms of bad evil GOP vs. pure divine Democratic where as I consider both to be quite sinister. All of the TV, radio pundits, with the honorable exceptions of Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs, are worthless. None of the rest show the slightest understanding of Americanist values or ideals. All support militarism but disagree perhaps on where to drop the bombs, all support international capitalism which provides them all with lavish incomes and lifestyles suitable to their monstrous egos. What they don't like is each other and on that I can agree with them. OswaldTheOsprey Somehow I knew you wouldn't be able to come up with anything that wasn't just more of your oddball social fascist rhetoric. No surprise. Here is the kind of analysis that I pay heed to rather than overpaid gasbags. From The World Socialist Website. OswaldTheOsprey http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/mar2008/obam-m14_prn.shtml |
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Urbi et Orbi
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Buzz
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« Reply #32 on: March 14, 2008, 08:49:59 PM » |
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What does this link of yours have to do with the fairness doctrine or whether left wing punditry is as bad as right wing punditry?
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #33 on: March 14, 2008, 09:00:22 PM » |
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What does this link of yours have to do with the fairness doctrine or whether left wing punditry is as bad as right wing punditry?
Let me try to explain: it is not a case of left vs. right to me but one of conformists vs. non-conformists. As to the fairness doctrine, it would possibly harm both sides as many stations would opt out of controversial topics altogether rather than having to give up airtime (and ad revenue). The link is non-conformist as is counterpunch.org, vdare.com and other sites I prefer. None is tied down to establishment capitalist entities. OswaldTheOsprey |
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Urbi et Orbi
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Abraxas
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"You do not speak for the rest"
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« Reply #34 on: March 14, 2008, 09:38:34 PM » |
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Well... thank you. That is your first bit of reasoning concerning the fairness doctrine that wasn't just an attack on liberals. Actually, it's not. From my original post: "How do you mandate objectible media? Why should it be regulated?"Now you are just plain wrong. Franken didn't loose his show because of a lack of listeners as he had plenty to make his show profitable. Al quit his show so that he could run for Congress.
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Again... you are wrong. Left wing radio has not failed. At least not Air America Radio because they are still in business.
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Again...Al Franken's show did not fail. And while Al's listeners may have been significantly less than the big boys like Rush, his numbers were more than most right wing pundits.
Abraxas... your basing some of your opinions on incorrect information. Honestly, I really don't have any opinions about Franken, but you're right. I thought AirAmerica was toast. I was wrong. But it really doesn't matter cause that's not my main point. My point is that it's a ridiculous idea to think that government could/should regulate any kind of media. Is all this cause they don't think it's "balanced" enough? Who cares what they think? It's not their call. What is this? "1984"? |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Ron Mars
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« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2008, 06:13:18 AM » |
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I am sorry you feel this way, but in the interest of keeping the conversation more civil I have reported your insults.
Excellent!! Running to a moderator is a sure sign you can't back up your own statements. Eisenhower predicted people like you would deny history. He was right. I hope we will be able to keep this civilized in the future.
You can start the civil discussion by explaining the "limited intel sent their way" comment that began this exchange. You know that isn't true, right? You know its BS from the "Bush Lied" kool-aid drinkers and yet you believed it anyway. Why? What did you read or hear that would make an otherwise intelligent person give up all logic and reason and cling to such an obvious lie. Why did you believe this pathetic lie? When you answer that we can begin the civil discussion about what Democrats said of Saddam's WMD programs. So far you have completely ignored them. |
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The national security of the United States can never be left in the hands of liberals.
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freethinker
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« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2008, 10:38:57 AM » |
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The expression "drinking the Kool-Aid" has entered the American idiom with little reference to its origins in the Jonestown tragedy of 18 November 1978. Instead, people are using Jonestown— the event—and Kool-Aid—the phrase—to signify a number of contradictory meanings and values. This is because those who died in Jonestown were ritually excluded from cultural consideration. The more traumatic the original incident, the more likely memory of that event will be forgotten or repressed. The author identifies the ways Kool-Aid and Jonestown are used in the news and on the Internet, and catalogues four main groups of uses: cult disasters, including 9/11; political uses; entertainment; and business uses. The categories of cult disasters and politics use Jonestown references negatively,thereby indicating a tenuous connection with the origins of the concepts. The entertainment and business worlds, however, use the references both negatively and positively,thus revealing dissociation and amnesia about the reality of Jonestown. http://caliber.ucpress.net/doi/abs/10.1525/nr.2003.7.2.92 As the above article indicates "kool aid drinking " is a reference to the jonestown tragedy when their unquestioned and infallible leader asked his loyal followers to voluntarily drink poisoned Kool-Aid at his comand, rather than face the failure and exposition of their less than moral activities, and they, of course, did. As anyone can see the idiomatic phrase fits the description of the Bushbots like Mars who will metaphoricly "swallow " anything their perfect leader asks them to. It has always confounded me that as a group the radical right use this insensitive and absurd phrase to describe those who would seek to expose the truth rather than "swallow " the lies of their infallible leader. The use of the phrase by Mars is exactly wrong and misapplied. |
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« Last Edit: March 15, 2008, 03:25:15 PM by freethinker »
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Buzz
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« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2008, 10:42:09 AM » |
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What does this link of yours have to do with the fairness doctrine or whether left wing punditry is as bad as right wing punditry?
Let me try to explain: it is not a case of left vs. right to me but one of conformists vs. non-conformists. As to the fairness doctrine, it would possibly harm both sides as many stations would opt out of controversial topics altogether rather than having to give up airtime (and ad revenue). The link is non-conformist as is counterpunch.org, vdare.com and other sites I prefer. None is tied down to establishment capitalist entities. OswaldTheOsprey I see... your more interested in non-conformity than you are in honesty and integrity. And even though Keith Olbermann and Al Franken tell the truth and don't lie all the time like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly do, they are all still equally evil because they are all conformist.  |
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Buzz
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« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2008, 10:56:38 AM » |
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Well... thank you. That is your first bit of reasoning concerning the fairness doctrine that wasn't just an attack on liberals. Actually, it's not. From my original post: "How do you mandate objectible media? Why should it be regulated?"Those are questions. And objectible is not a word. Now you are just plain wrong. Franken didn't loose his show because of a lack of listeners as he had plenty to make his show profitable. Al quit his show so that he could run for Congress.
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Again... you are wrong. Left wing radio has not failed. At least not Air America Radio because they are still in business.
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Again...Al Franken's show did not fail. And while Al's listeners may have been significantly less than the big boys like Rush, his numbers were more than most right wing pundits.
Abraxas... your basing some of your opinions on incorrect information. Honestly, I really don't have any opinions about Franken, but you're right. I thought AirAmerica was toast. I was wrong. Now why did you think that Air America had gone out of business? I believe it is because right wing pundits and people who repeat their lies always talk about Air America in a way that insinuates that they did go under. And this is what happens all the time when these pundits want to distort the truth and mislead their listeners. They lie then those lies are repeated over and over again until many start to believe them. And that is why we need to do something about all the BS coming from political pundits. Now whether or not the fairness doctrine is the best thing to do I am not 100% sure but it is in my opinion the best idea so far that will still protect our right to free speech. I do know of a better option but I doubt it would work. That would be for the right to recognize that these misleading pundits are constantly lying to them. If the right would just quit believing people who are known to constantly get their facts wrong then the republican party wouldn't be so messed up like they are today. But it really doesn't matter cause that's not my main point. My point is that it's a ridiculous idea to think that government could/should regulate any kind of media. Is all this cause they don't think it's "balanced" enough? Who cares what they think? It's not their call.
What is this? "1984"?
Our government regulates the media all the time. And much of this regulation is intended to prevent free speech from harming the country and its people. As far as I am concerned right wing pundits are harming this country. |
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OswaldTheOsprey
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« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2008, 11:07:03 AM » |
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What does this link of yours have to do with the fairness doctrine or whether left wing punditry is as bad as right wing punditry?
Let me try to explain: it is not a case of left vs. right to me but one of conformists vs. non-conformists. As to the fairness doctrine, it would possibly harm both sides as many stations would opt out of controversial topics altogether rather than having to give up airtime (and ad revenue). The link is non-conformist as is counterpunch.org, vdare.com and other sites I prefer. None is tied down to establishment capitalist entities. OswaldTheOsprey I see... your more interested in non-conformity than you are in honesty and integrity. And even though Keith Olbermann and Al Franken tell the truth and don't lie all the time like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly do, they are all still equally evil because they are all conformist. It is not a matter of truth vs. lies. It is a matter of slant-Olbermann and Franken are lackeys of the Democrats and Limbaugh and O'Reilly are lackeys of the GOP. I do think they are equally evil (not to mention vain and egotistical). As to the parties, history shows us the sinister nature of both of them. Can I ask you a question: Why does it get under your skin so much that I don't agree with you? There are others left and right (most IAPers probably) who disagree with my various positions without becoming rabidly hysterical. Just asking. OswaldTheOsprey |
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Abraxas
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« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2008, 12:07:46 PM » |
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Those are questions. And objectible is not a word. Those are rhetorical questions. I assumed my point that you CAN'T/SHAN'T regulate media was rather obvious... Now why did you think that Air America had gone out of business?
I believe it is because right wing pundits and people who repeat their lies always talk about Air America in a way that insinuates that they did go under. And this is what happens all the time when these pundits want to distort the truth and mislead their listeners. They lie then those lies are repeated over and over again until many start to believe them. If I listened to "right wing pundits" then you may very well have a point, but seeing as I only really listen to NPR, I don't see why Rush and his other brainless cohorts should make an impact on my opinion... And that is why we need to do something about all the BS coming from political pundits. Now whether or not the fairness doctrine is the best thing to do I am not 100% sure but it is in my opinion the best idea so far that will still protect our right to free speech.
I do know of a better option but I doubt it would work. That would be for the right to recognize that these misleading pundits are constantly lying to them. If the right would just quit believing people who are known to constantly get their facts wrong then the republican party wouldn't be so messed up like they are today. Why doesn't AirAmerica just advertise? Like any other company? I've seen their bill boards at school in NYC... but I don't care. I see Bennets on my way to Flyers games in south eastern PA... but I don't care. Basically, AirAmerica is doing what they can... but people STILL aren't listening. Don't you think this should tell you something? Our government regulates the media all the time. And much of this regulation is intended to prevent free speech from harming the country and its people. As far as I am concerned right wing pundits are harming this country.
That's your opinion and you're entiteled to it... and even on some level, I agree. But regardless of your opinion (or mine) or the opinion of Congress, media is an enviroment that should remain FREE of government expectations. It's not their role to make sure everyone plays fair. It's their job to keep it open to whoever wants to join. If AirAmerica doesn't have as many fans as the right wing radio stations, why is it anyone's fault but their own? |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Buzz
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« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2008, 07:20:00 PM » |
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I see... your more interested in non-conformity than you are in honesty and integrity. And even though Keith Olbermann and Al Franken tell the truth and don't lie all the time like Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly do, they are all still equally evil because they are all conformist. It is not a matter of truth vs. lies. It is a matter of slant-Olbermann and Franken are lackeys of the Democrats and Limbaugh and O'Reilly are lackeys of the GOP. I do think they are equally evil (not to mention vain and egotistical). As to the parties, history shows us the sinister nature of both of them. So... You are saying that not being biased is more important to you than being honest? I guess I will just have to strongly disagree. And I would add that recent history does not show that the Democratic party is as sinister as the republican party as of late. And since we have a fundemental difference in our standards of right and wrong we will obviously not agree on this matter either. Can I ask you a question: Why does it get under your skin so much that I don't agree with you? There are others left and right (most IAPers probably) who disagree with my various positions without becoming rabidly hysterical. Just asking. Have I been calling you names or being rude to you somehow? I don't think so. I would say you are being overly sensitive of my criticism to be calling me rabid and hysterical. |
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Buzz
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« Reply #42 on: March 16, 2008, 09:08:58 PM » |
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Now why did you think that Air America had gone out of business?
I believe it is because right wing pundits and people who repeat their lies always talk about Air America in a way that insinuates that they did go under. And this is what happens all the time when these pundits want to distort the truth and mislead their listeners. They lie then those lies are repeated over and over again until many start to believe them. If I listened to "right wing pundits" then you may very well have a point, but seeing as I only really listen to NPR, I don't see why Rush and his other brainless cohorts should make an impact on my opinion... Well... you are proving my point. You don't listen to right wing pundits but you were still misinformed about Air America Radio. I don't think this is just a coincidence. Our government regulates the media all the time. And much of this regulation is intended to prevent free speech from harming the country and its people. As far as I am concerned right wing pundits are harming this country.
That's your opinion and you're entiteled to it... and even on some level, I agree. But regardless of your opinion (or mine) or the opinion of Congress, media is an enviroment that should remain FREE of government expectations. It's not their role to make sure everyone plays fair. It's their job to keep it open to whoever wants to join. If AirAmerica doesn't have as many fans as the right wing radio stations, why is it anyone's fault but their own? This is not about making Air America equal to right wing radio. This is about stopping the harm being done by right wing radio. And I think the best option to do this with the least amount of infringement of our freedom of speech is to make sure everyone has their chance to speak. The government does regulate the public air waves for the good of the people. And The Supreme Court has ruled that the fairness doctrine is constitutional if done right and all that is needed to bring it back is a law from Congress. I think the small amount of freedom our media would loose would be well worth it if we could help stop some of the misinformation that is corrupting our political system. |
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Abraxas
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« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2008, 09:38:57 PM » |
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Well... you are proving my point. You don't listen to right wing pundits but you were still misinformed about Air America Radio. I don't think this is just a coincidence. I think all it proves is that *I* personally don't want to listen to either side... This is not about making Air America equal to right wing radio. This is about stopping the harm being done by right wing radio. And I think the best option to do this with the least amount of infringement of our freedom of speech is to make sure everyone has their chance to speak. The government does regulate the public air waves for the good of the people. And The Supreme Court has ruled that the fairness doctrine is constitutional if done right and all that is needed to bring it back is a law from Congress.
I think the small amount of freedom our media would loose would be well worth it if we could help stop some of the misinformation that is corrupting our political system.
I think if the media loses ANY freedom, no matter how small, then this country has lost the one thing it still has going for it: a freedom to say whatever the hell you want. |
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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Buzz
Full Member
Karma: +30/-35
Posts: 157
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« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2008, 10:23:19 PM » |
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I think all it proves is that *I* personally don't want to listen to either side...
Whether you got the misinformation directly from the source or indirectly from others, it makes no difference. You were misinformed. Doesn't that bother you? I think if the media loses ANY freedom, no matter how small, then this country has lost the one thing it still has going for it: a freedom to say whatever the hell you want.
Thats just it... you can't say what ever you want. Just like you can't falsely yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. |
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