Most of all, the poster was lying.

There is no free healthcare in China.

In China, you go to a hospital, say you want to see a doctor, then pay a fee to see a doctor.  Then the doctor issues you with a prescription for medecine.  You have to go back downstairs to a cashier, pay for the medecine, and then go to pick the medecine up.  No money, no treatment, no exceptions.  Families have seen entire generations go broke to treat illnesses such as cancer (often unsuccessfully as the healthcare here is far worse than in the west, with seriously incompetent doctors and filthy hospitals).

I do wish people would stop referring to China as 'communist', though, it's communist by name only.  In many ways it resembles the regimes that the USA supported to combat communism rather than real communism.  Basically, 95% of the country live like peasants, earning pitiful salaries, and an elite earn money that would make most westerners envious, because of having the right position in the local party, or having the right 'guanxi' or connections to be able to be a successful businessman.  Those without guanxi run the gauntlet of police intimidation, having to pay hefty bribes just to keep their businesses open, and so on.

My Gawd but your childish!

I would really rather use this thread that is supposed to be about Tibet for the truth about Tibet, but what the heck, I'll do both.

Since you don't know anything about China and have never lived in China, can't read or write or speak or understand the Chinese language, your little protestations about what is and what is not talked about in China by Chinese people are irrelevant. All you know about China is what you are told by someone who knew someone that heard it from someone who read it in a newspaper in an article written by someone who also didn't know.

I'll try again...I don't care about American laws. I don't care if someone gets jailed in America because they choose to go against the American govt. in America. It is irrelevant to me. The point was not and is not if someone was jailed - go back and read your first bit of tripe - it was about the Patriot Act, directions to the relevant section of the act provided for you out of the goodness of my heart, - and the similarity of the laws allowing BOTH govt's to read emails, trace senders and recipients, arrest if it is felt by the investigators that a law was broken.

I don't know if anyone in the States has been arrested for criticizing the American govt...and neither do you. Of course, numerous protesters in the States are arrested on a regular basis for protesting against the American govt. Here's just one from Faux News about 83 protesters being arrested...is that being arrested for criticizing the govt? Here's the Faux News() link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299959,00.html.

How about 6 arrested at a Baby Bush rally? Is that being arrested for criticizing the govt? Here's that link: http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11525prs20041014.html

Seems you are as lacking in knowledge about America as you are about China...or you just don't know how to use Google!

Education is free in Canada??? Wow, my family got screwed paying for all those damn books and little "extras" then. Too late now though. As for medicare being free...well, you are starting to confuse me since you either aren't Canadian or don't get a paycheck. Deductions for medicare are taken off of every paycheck. In Alberta, where I'm from, ol' Ralphie began to allow hospitals and doctors to charge extra for visits if they want. So you're wrong again. As well, if one wants or needs an operation that isn't covered under medicare, extra payment is required.

As for your next, I see now you are trying to change from Chinese people needing permission to have children - which they do not - to needing permission to have more than one. No sweat, I already explained it to you. Just because you can't get past your racist tendencies to note the difference is again irrelevant. No person in China needs to go and get permission to have a child and ONLY the members of the majority Han ethnic group living in cities need to be concerned IF they want more than one child. This is a policy established to save Chinese society and it has worked admirably in keeping the population stable. You don't like it, nobody cares. China has 55 ethnic groups and the policy isn't even relevant to any of those ethnic groups other than the Han majority...and they have lots of children.

Your whining because the China govt is actually a government that understands what the word govern means simply demonstrates your lack of understanding. It is the responsibility of a government to do whatever is necessary to ensure a stable society. You also fail by lacking the understanding that a different society has different societal norms. In China - and some other countries - the right of the society trumps the right of the individual. That's the way it is in China and guess what? They have the right to make that decision. The stupidity of a society that puts the right of the individual above the right of the society makes such a backward society a failure...and ruins the lives of the people in that society. It is a mistake to put the individual above the society - any society - because that leads to failure.

What you do in your own backyard is your business. If your government is so backward (although since you suggest you're a Canadian it's also my govt., especially since I still have to pay taxes to the Canadian govt even though I live and work in China) - that they put the individual above the society then "they" are not a government.

So you agree that if someone breaks a law they are subject to arrest? That's at least a sign that you can understand. Guess all that's left is for you to realize that China is a sovereign nation with the right to promulgate and enforce adherence to China laws. As well, of course, as realizing that China does not have to pay any attention to the laws of any other country in relation to China.

But as was pointed out above, people in the States - as well as other countries - are jailed for protesting against "their" govt.'s, so your protestations are moot.

I also see you don't know anything about the Communist system, either the Russian style or the very much different China style. It's like the many bastardizations of the original concepts of democracy in that respect. Just like there are no two countries that practice - and it is only practice - democracy in the same way...just Canada and the States for example where the differences are legion...the principles of Communism adopted by any nation choosing to so adopt any, all, some or whatever of the original concepts, all vary.

You may think the backward systems of democratic countries are acceptable, but they aren't. They fail the people that most need the government...but the stooges in government in those countries make out like thieves, granting themselves everything they deny their own people. Time for you to study up on political science - but with a world view if possible for you and not the insulated type it appears you have heard about.

Here, this may help, a quote from Dr. Sun Yat Sen, and if you ever have the time to read his book "The Three Principles of the People" then perhaps you will understand: "An individual should not have too much freedom. A nation must have absolute freedom." Sun Yat Sen

A true, REAL government realizes that allowing the individual to run rampant is the most heinous act of a morally and ethically bankrupt nation. Machiavelli liked it of course, he said that the best way to control the people is to allow them access to their most base animal desires and then they wouldn't really try and change their servitude. America is like that now as is Canada and Britain and Australia just to name 4 backward countries with ineffective governments.

The key is: China has the right to do what China wants in China. America has the right to do what America wants IN America...but America has NO right to try and force any other country in the world to adhere to the failed American model.

I see you're still struggling to find a "human" right to post but still feel spewing the usual vacuous propaganda rhetoric is fine. No biggy, I know better. Hey, here's a real hint...there are only 2 - that's right, count 'em - 2 "human" rights, and one is dependent on the first: the right to be born and the right to die. All others are rights granted to the individual from whichever country they are born. All other rights are either political or social and the ones in one country have no relevance to any other country UNLESS that other country wishes to adopt the political rights and social norms of another country.

China will NEVER accept whole-hog the political and social rights of any other country. China is smart enough to examine and choose the aspects that are relevant to China's history, culture and desire for the future.

I also care nothing about people from China who live in Canada or the States who tell people they meet what they think those people wish to hear. Hey, I understand. Being allowed to do whatever one wants, accepting the con that the individual is more important than the nation, is addictive; I get it. That doesn't make it "right" and it certainly doesn't make it applicable to any other country.

So keep your political rights and social norms. They belong to you. China has her own and they belong to China. China is not America. China has more people in just one city than we have in the entire country of Canada...and the political system in Canada can't even deal with the measly 30 million we do have. There is no way in hell it would ever work in a country of 1.4 Billion people.

Oh dear renegadedog, how idiotic of you!

Tibet was never a country. It has always been part of China since before it even had a name. Tenzin Gyatso is from Qinghai, also a part of China. He is Chinese.

He is called a traitor because that is what he is. He was paid by America - the American Ambassador to India Henderson was the frontman of the "offer" - to turn his back on the people of Tibet because the American govt. of the time was busy terrorizing their own people in the masturbatory orgasm that was McCarthyism. He was paid to violate an agreement that would allow the people of Tibet to be free from the evil slavery they suffered under; to violate and agreement he signed that would allow the people of Tibet to get an education, own their own land, own their own bodies...and he accepted the con. Mind you, back then he was just a kid, not even 20 yet, so it was easy for Henderson to con him and his brothers into accepting money to be traitors.

Since then he has continued to be a traitor as well as a terrorist and a liar.

Calling him a traitor is exactly correct.

Wrong again renegadedog, but I know you are used to that.

The Olympic Torch was not snatched away from the one-legged wheelchair bound girl being pushed by a blind man, she held on to the torch protecting it from the scum terrorist supporter that tried to take it from her. Yes, the crippled girl in the wheelchair being pushed by a blind man was able to hold off the scum terrorist supporter while the French police watched. She was tough, the terrorist supporter was a wimp.

And I doubt anyone - unless some of the other foreign morons from the CD migrate over here - that knows the truth about the situation will agree that what you quoted was a "good post" - more like "same shyte, different pile."

As is your last sentence of course...pure lying shyte taken almost verbatim from typical anti-China racist propaganda.

Needlessly abusive post reported.

The histories posted to support Tibet being part of China only ever show it as a very loosely affiliated protectorate; China certainly never occupied Tibet to the degree which it does today.  If one were to use history as a basis, there would only be a few hundred chinese 'overseers' in Tibet, it would more or less work as an independent country, there wouldn't be one soldier for every 20 tibetans, which is possibly the most large-scale military occupation in any country or region anywhere in the world.

I'd be happy to. Not certain if there is a limit on bytes used in one post, but here's one I wrote elsewhere. A timeline that is all easily confirmed simply by doing what I did...read and investigate from many sources to try and find the truth rather than just blindly accepting the propaganda spewed by the traitor and terrorist Tenzin Gyatso and his supporters and financiers. Ooops! Just got the "exceeds maximum" message so I'll cut it down and post it in parts. Here's the first:

Tibet has been an inseparable part of China from time immemorial. Prior to the common era, the ancestors of the Tibetan people had contacts with the Han people living in the central plains of China. During the long years leading up to the seventh century the many tribes scattered on the Tibet Plateau gradually came together to form the Tibetan ethnic group The Tubo Dynasty.

Early in the seventh century China moved into a new stage of its history. The Tang Dynasty (618-907) was a powerful and politically united dynasty that initially established order over the shifting and chaotic situation that had prevailed for more than 300 years in China.

At the same time, the great Tibetan leader Songtsen Gampo brought together more than ten separate tribes, an event commonly seen as marking the establishment of the Tibetan kingdom, making his capital in present-day Lhasa.

Songtsen Gampo had good relations with the Tang court and Tibet benefited from the impartation of Tang technologies (advanced for the day), and was influenced by Tang culture and politics. He twice sent ministers to the Tang Dynasty court requesting a member of the imperial family be given him in marriage and in 641 was given Princess Wencheng, a member of Emperor Taizong's family.

Introduced into Tibet during this time were Chinese technologies for wine-making, grinding and paper and ink making. Sons of the Tibetan aristocracy were sent to the Tang capital Changan to study Literati from the Tang court went to the Tibetan capital to handle communications with the emperor During the reign of Songtsen Gampo political, economic and cultural relations between the two nations were friendly.

Laudatory titles given King Songtsen Gampo by Emperor Gaozong include "Commandant-escort," "Commandery Prince of the Western Sea" and Companion Prince." This pattern of friendly relations established during the reign of Songtsen Gampo was carried on during the the next two hundred years In 710 the Tang Princess Jincheng was sent to Tibet to marry the Tibetan King Tride Tsugtsen, accompanied by several tens of thousands of pieces of embroidered satin brocade, a variety of technical writings and various other useful items Princess Jincheng later gave money to support Buddhist monks from Yutian (now in modern Xinjiang) and elsewhere on their trips to Tibet to build temples and translate sutras.

She also requested that Chinese classical works such as The Book of Songs with Annotation by Mao Heng The Book of Rites, Zuo Qiuming's Chronicles and Xiao Tong's Literary Selections be gent to her from the Tang court In 821 King Ralpachen of Tibet three times sent envoys to Changan to discuss forming an alliance with the Tang Empire. Emperor Muzong ordered his prime minister to effect the alliance in a grand ceremony held in the western suburbs of the capital.

The following year high-ranking representatives of the Tang court including Liu Yuanding were dispatched to Tibet to participate in a similar ceremony marking the alliance held in the eastern suburbs of Lhasa. Representatives of the Tibetan king included his chief ministers. This all occured during the first and second years (822 and 823) of the Changqing reign of the Tang Dynasty, and accordingly has been called the Changqing Alliance" by historians The two parties agreed to "amity as though they were of one family" and to "treat their sacrificial alters as though they were one."

An account of the alliance is recorded on three stelae, the "Tang-Tubo Alliance Stelae," one of which still stands before the Jokhang Temple in Lhasa.

Beginning around 842 the Tubo Kingdom broke up. Rival groups of ministers and members of the royal family engaged in internecine struggle. Power was reduced to the local level This state of affairs continued for more than 400 years.

In 1247 the Mongol prince Godan invited the head abbot of the Sakya order Sakya Pandita Gonggar Gyaltsen to a meeting in Liangzhou (modern Wuwei in Gansu Province). He offered the submission of Tibet to the Mongol Khanate and the acceptance of a defined local administrative system and in return the Sakya were given political power in Tibet. In 1271 the Mongolian conquerors took Yuan as the name of their dynasty.

In 1279 following their defeat of the Song they completed their unification of all of China.

In 1260, when Kublai Khan (1215-1294) ascended the throne, he conferred the title Mentor of State on Gonggar Gyaltsen's nephew Phagspa, King of the Dharma of the Sakya order.

In 1264 Kublai Khan established the Supreme Control Commisssion for Buddhism with Phagspa at its head.

In 1265 Kublai Khan honoured Phagspa with the titles of Dabaofawang (Great Treasure King of the Dharma) and Dishi (Imperial Preceptor) Following Phagspa's recommendations he appointed an official for the overall management of Tibetan affairs.

In 1268, 1287 and 1334 the Yuan central government sent officials to check on the Tibetan population. Fifteen staging posts were set up linking communications between Tibet and the Yuan capital Dadu (modern Beijing). In addition, the conscript labour system was established and promoted in Tibet.

Since Tibet formalIy became part of China, China has seen changes of dynasty and many change-overs in the central authority, but Tibet has always remained under the Chinese central government's jurisdiction. During the mid-14th century the Sakya government gradually declined m authority

In 1354 Jangchub Gyaltsen of the Phagdru Kagyupa gained political control over most of Tibet. This political-religions government was recognized by the Yuan court and Jangchub Gyeltsen was given the title Grand Minister of Education.

With the overthrow of the Yuan and the founding of the Ming Dynasty in 1368, a policy whereby titles were widely conferred was put into effect. The head of any religious order who could claim local political power was given an honorary title such as "king," "dharma king" or "Abhisecana preceptor of state" ("Abhisecana" being a Bnddhist ceremony wherein a student's initiation is acknowledged by his teacher sprinkling water on his head) Succession to the throne was subject to approval by the emperor who would dispatch officials to deliver diplomas acknowledging the title.

During this time, the Gelug (Yellow) order, which recognized two great Living Buddhas, the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, was gaining in prominence.

The Third Dalai Lama Sonam Gyatso gave presents to the Ming court and in return was given the title "Dorje Chang" (Holder of the Vajra) The Ming government followed Yuan Dynasty practices regards Tibet. It established the U-Tsang and the Gargain garrison command headquarters and the Olisi Military-Civil Governor's Office respectively to manage the military and political affairs in Anterior and Ulterior Tibet, Qamdo and Ngari. During this time, the Phagdru government established the dzongpon system in parts of Tibet.

The administrative heads of each dzong (an administrative unit about the size of a county) were recognized by the Ming court as dzongpon (county magistrate) In 1644, the Qing Dynasty overthrew the Ming.

The Qing emperor Shunzhi on several occasions invited the Fifth Dalai Lama to Beijing, and in 1652 he did so. In 1653 the emperor gave the Dalai Lama a gold-leaf diploma and gold seal formally recognizing his status as the Dalai Lama. In 1713 Emperor Kangxi similarly honoured the Fifth Panchen Lama Lozang Yeshe formally recognizing him as "Panchen Erdeni." Beginning around this time the Dalai Lama based in Lhasa ruled over the greater part of Tibet and the Panchen Lama based in Xigaze ruled over the remainder.

In 1727 the Qing court appointed a Resident Commissioner (Amban) as a central government representative in Tibet to oversee Tibet's administrative affairs. Tibet's borders with Sichuan, Yunnan and Qinghai were formally surveyed and fixed at this time. In 1721 the Qing central government established the Kaloon (Ministers of Council) system in Tibet. In 1750 the Tibetan administrative system was reformulated and the "commandery prince" system was eliminated. The Tibetan local government (Kashag) was founded.


In 1793 the Qing government issued the famous 29-Article Ordinance for the More Efficient Governing of Tibet, dealing with the authority of the Amban, the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama, the Panchen Lama and other important Living Buddhas, frontier defence, relations with the outside world, finance and tax revenues, minting and administration of currency, and the support and administration of monasteries. The basic principles formulated in the 29-Article Ordinance remained the standard for the administrative and legal systems in Tibet for more than the next hundred years.

In 1911 the Xinhai Revolution against the Qing Dynasty led to the establishment of the Republic of China, a multi-ethnic, unified state combining Han, Manchu, Mongolian, Hui, Tibetan and other peoples The central government continued jurisdiction over Tibet as it had for centuries.

In 1912 the Bureau of Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs (in 191? - I forget and I didn't write it down) renamed the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Office was set up chiefly to manage Tibetan affairs. The Nanjing National Government came to power in 1927 and two years later it set up the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission to oversee administration of the areas inhabited by Tibetans, Mongolians and other ethnic minorities.

In 1940 the National Government set up a resident office of the Mongolian and Tibetan Affairs Commission in Lhasa to function as the central government's standing body in Tibet. The Tibetan government frequently sent officials to participate in the Republic's National Congress. The Republic suffered from incessant foreign aggression and frequent internal disturbances. But despite the fragility of the central government the Dalai and Panchen lamas continued to accept its official recognition of their positions, receiving legal status in their political and religious roles in Tibet.

The (Fourteenth) D L, the terrorist Tenzin Gyatso, was sanctioned in a proclamation issued by the president of the National Government.

In 1949 the People's Republic of China was founded. Proceeding in cognizance of Tibet's history and present reality, the Central People's Government determined a policy of peaceful liberation.

On May 23, 1951, representatives from the Central People's Government and the local government of Tibet agreed on a series of issues regarding Tibet's peaceful liberation, signing the Agreement of the Central People's Government and the Local Government of Tibet on Measures for the Peaceful Liberation of Tibet (known as the 17-Article Agreement) The 17-Article Agreement contains several main points.

First, the central government demanded that the Tibetan local government actively strengthen national defence and resolutely drive imperialist forces out of Tibet.

Second, the Central People's Government would not alter Tibet's current system or the Dalai Lama's inherent status and authority The Tibetan people's customs would be respected and their religious freedom protected.

Third, a total end to slavery.

Fourth, the right to education for the people.

The reform of Tibetan society would be decided after consultation with Tibetan leaders. Regional autonomy for minority people would be instituted in Tibet autonomus region. The Dalai Lama and Panchen Erdeni separately telegraphed their acceptance of the 17-Article Agreement to Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Central People's Government, resolutely upholding the unity of the motherland's sovereignty.

Other Tibetans, monastic and secular, and local Tibetan leaders expressed their firm support as well. This date marks a new page in Tibetan history. In 1954 the Tenzin Gyatso and the Panchen came to Beijing to participate in the first session of the First National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China. During this conference, the Dalai Lama was elected as Vice Chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, and Panchen Erdeni, member of the NPC Standing Committee.

In 1956, the Preparatory Committee for the Tibet Autonomous Region was founded with the Dalai Lama as its chairman.

In March 1959, the majority of the kaloons in the Tibetan local government joined with the reactionary clique of the upper social strata launched a comprehensive armed rebellion with the aim of splitting the country, preserving the slavery and opposing democratic reform. The Central People's Government ordered the PLA in Tibet rerolutely to quell the rebellion.

On March 28 of the same year, Zhou Enlai, Premier of the State Council of the Central People's Government, released an order dissolving the Tibetan local government, and declaring that the functions and authority of the Tibetan local government would be vested in the Preparatory Committee for the Tibet Autonomous Region.

At this same time, the Central People's Government, responding to the will of the Tibetan people, implemented democratic reform and abolished the slavery in Tibet. As a result, the million serfs and slaves in Tibet stood up and came into their own, instead of being treated as the private property of serf-owners that could be traded, transferred or used to pay off a debt in kind or by labour. After a few years of steady development, the Tibet Autonomous Region was formally founded in September 1965.

Actually, much of the rest come from several sources in Russia. Just to show that this information is available to anyone in the world who really wishes to know the truth, and it again starts from the distant past.

TB has been an integral of China since the 13th century.

The Tufans are one branch of the Xi Qiang (West Qiang) tribes who have founded a kingdom in Xizang (Tibet) the recorded history of which began only around Tang time in early seventh century. Up until this time, they consisted of some one hundred and fifty separate tribes who constantly quarrelled among themselves and sought mediation periodically from succeeding courts of the Middle Kingdom (China) since the Han dynasty (B.C. 206-220 A.D.)

Tufan zanpu (king in the local TB language) Qizonglong Zan sent to the Tang court in 641, an emissary named Ludong Zan to ask for the hand of a Tang princess in marriage, a ritual gesture of a tributary vassal state. Two years earlier still, in 639, thirteenth year of the reign of Emperor Taizong, Tufan zanpu Qizonglong Zan had already sent over twenty thousand ounces of gold to the Emperor as a sign of the king's honorable intentions. Ludong Zan arrived again in 641 with an additional marriage gift of five thousand more taels of gold.

Princess Wencheng, daughter of the Emperor, from among the daughters of one of his twenty-one brothers, was given in marriage in the same year to seventy-three-year-old Tufan zanpu Qizonglong Zan, after her aging suitor paid an additional final marriage gift of five times the weight of his young bride in gold. Princess Wencheng was at the time sixteen years old.

The ceremony in which the hand of Princess Wencheng was formally requested in marriage was memorialized by famous Tang painter, Yan Liben, (c. 600-673), in a painting entitled: Sedan Chair Portrait, now at the Beijing Palace Art Museum.

Princess Wencheng would be credited by historians as being instrumental in introducing Tang culture into TB, as well as Mahayana Buddhism, the growth of which she would help to foster throughout her life in the exotic land. Indigenous mystic and animistic concepts then modified Mahayana Buddhism soon after its introduction.

While I'm at it, might as well post this, as well. This was written in response to the babbling on the Crappy pseudo-News Network and the lies they were spreading with so much glee.

There was "foreign press" there as has been posted. Of course, the anti-China racist mouth-breathing bottom-dwelling knuckle-dragging troglodytes stay clear from the real truth. Preferring to substitute the lies from the weapons of mass deception but the terrorist and traitor Tenzin Gyatso and the terrorist organization he fronts and the British and American groups that fund his terrorist organizatoin, FOR the truth and reality:

confirmed by James Miles, the journalist for the London Economist, who was in Lhasa during the week of the riots.
----
As Miles wrote: "What I saw was calculated targeted violence against an ethnic group, or, I should say, two ethnic groups, primarily ethnic Han Chinese living in Lhasa, but also members of the Muslim Hui minority in Lhasa." The rioters, Miles said, "marked those businesses that they knew to be Tibetan-owned with white traditional scarves. Those businesses were left intact. Almost every single other across a wide swathe of the city ... was either burned, looted, destroyed, smashed into, the property therein hauled out into the streets, piled up, burned. It was an extraordinary outpouring of ethnic violence of a most unpleasant nature to watch, which surprised some Tibetans watching it."

Miles also reported that the police did virtually nothing for several days, waited for the riot to run itself out, and only then moved in to secure the streets, "when they felt safe I think that there would not be massive bloodshed."

Despite this coverage, the world press constantly repeats the mantra that the Chinese kept the press out of Tibet during the riots, and that the Chinese must be held responsible for the violence. Those, like U.S. Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, who travelled to visit the Dalai Lama after the riots, and lied that the slaughter of Han Chinese and Hui Chinese Muslims in Lhasa was the result of "Chinese oppression," must be asked: Why are you serving the racist British Empire?

There is lots of truth available, but unfortunately, the so-called "mainstream media" in the west that are simply mouthpieces for whichever frontmen are shilling for the local rulers, doesn't like to rock the anti-China boat and provide it on the evening news.

Fortunately, there are many who have written the truth...and the truth shall set you free. Just as free as TB is now and has been since the terrorist and traitor Tenzin Gyatso took American blood money and scurried away to be the poster boy for America's and Britain's attacks on China.