You guys have a lot of weird misconceptions about China.  Of course, it's a developing country, and as such is far from perfect, but most my beefs with it are more petty-minded "Westerner overseas can't get hold of his favourite items" (and even most of those I could doubtless get were I in Shanghai or Guangzhou) type ones, as well as rather Prince Charles-esque ones (I don't think the architecture is in the main that attractive, to say the least).

However, if the latter grounds for branding an entire country as completely repressive, then well, a huge area of London south of London Bridge would be for the High Jump (I mean, which are worse, the Soviet-era blocks which permeate Chinese cities, or the 60s UK council blocks?  Pretty even, I reckon)

  Sure, the air in the cities is dirty, but no more so than most other developing cities like Jakarta or Bangkok or Manila.  The internet censorship is an arse, but the fact is that the B.S talked here is total gash.  Why do you all seem to think that Chinese people can't get online unless they are party members?  China will have more internet users than the US soon.  I don't know whether this means that that many will have private internet access at home, or that they will have access somewhere, like an internet cafe, but either way, it's painfully wrong-headed to suggest or imply that only a few elite party hacks can get access to the internet.

Furthermore - what developing countries have you guys visited?  India is a democracy, but also has poverty far, far worse than China.  Even the poor urbanites in China have their own flat, running water, a kitchen, a couple of bedrooms, albeit in one of the older blocks.  Heck I've seen people in Paris live worse than that.  It's not a third world country any more.  Thailand is a great place, but Bangkok is full of slums and shanty towns.  Chinese cities are, for the most part, not.

Chinese people are the most hospitable people on earth, bar none.  What big, western city have you ever had near-strangers invite you to their home and treat you to lavish meals, and refuse (virtually by force) when you try to contribute money towards the cost of the food?

China also has a rail and travel network that makes the UK's look crummy.  Considering it's still a developing country the rail system is majorly impressive.

I have to admit I used to have my doubts about Tibet, but some of the stuff I've read on here over the last few days, especially by Canchin, as well as a documentary series I've been watching which paints a rather different picture from usual, has made me reconsider.

Let's think this way.  30 years ago, it was pretty difficult for westerners to even visit China.  If they did they were totally restricted, had to go round in a tour, and often could not actually talk to any locals.  Until about 20 years ago Chinese people could not even marry foreigners.

Now there are lots of Chinese people marrying foreigners, some Chinese people argue too many.  But the point is that it's changing probably more quickly than any country has ever changed.

Yes, it can be filthy.
Yes, it can be inconvenient.
Yes, its cities are full of what could only reasonably be described as 'eyesores'.

Look beyond that though and you find one of the most hospitable cultures you can imagine, I absolutely guarantee it.  People are not spied on 24 hours a day.  They're more interested in Nike shoes than Maoist suits.

because China is essentially 50 years old as a 'country' in the sense that we know it.  Before that it endured 200-odd years of being royally fucked over by western powers, and completely raped by Japan in World War 2, which left them with very little real infrastructure.  It's no surprise that they don't want to listen to westerners telling them what to do now.

I think the point, surely, is not to say that what China did or didn't do in Tibet is right on the basis of what the USA did, but more to point out that, relative to the overall population in China, and certainly relative to poor, undeveloped mostly Han Chinese regions of China, Tibet is doing pretty well, whereas in the USA, the Native Americans are undoubtedly the poorest people - my American friend said that the state of native american reservations was much worse than anything he saw in China - and that's in relation to the luxurious living elsewhere in the US.

Sort out your own Native American issue first, start to make some reparations beyond the token stupid gesture of allowing them to run casinos, start to fund their traditional languages, allow them to live their traditional lifestyles, don't make them live in cruddy reservations where nuclear bombs are tested, and then people can start to talk about Tibet, as the above is precisely how Tibetans are treated.  Their culture is entirely intact, bar that of a few psychotic terrorist-supporting monks.

Same could be said about Europe which definitely more "fucked up" than China during WWII. China is one of the most ancient countries and Chinese are as nation. China "raped" by its own as any other country that claims it got raped by "x"... Who really got raped are Tibetans by those poor Chinese who instead of improving their economy right after WWII decided to rape smaller regions around.

Good luck

Doing pretty well?  According to statistics the world's media can't verify because they can't generally get into said area to investigate.  I trust that. 

Ahkenaten, I still think you're soft pedaling on the evils we inflicted on Native Americans.  Unfortunately I still fail to see the relevance of the issue on this thread.

Pengy & Wiglaf. Be patient for reply. Busy tonight.

When did China was surrounded by Tibetans that explode on the streets, fire rockets on population and hide among civilians when firing those rockets? When did you hear any Tibetan news coming from China?

I'm certainly not saying China is the worst dictatorship in the world or what you have done, do and will do to Tibetans are the worst crimes against humanity but i get your point. I cannot speak unless my nation "right" in your eyes. So as probably you cannot speak or any other nation because there is no nation that has no blood on it's hands. Trust me.

So you can . my . !