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Author Topic: Liberalism v. Realism  (Read 1458 times)
Abraxas
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« on: March 21, 2008, 07:47:18 AM »

I had some time on my hands and wanted to start this debate... so if people just ignore it, it's fine.

Anyway, I'm taking an International Relatins class as a Humanities credit, and while I basically knew a lot of what we're learning, I never really had terms for them. I also didn't know the motivations of each side, and while I usually disagree with putting people into "columns", I'm curious to see where people may stand on each concept.

Me? Well, I'm pretty sure I sit right on the fence.

I think individual groups inside each state decide its motivations (Liberal), but I think the concept of power for each country is important only in the sense of how much power that state has compared to others (Realist). I think the motivations of each group is usually only to gain more power, but the state ultimately chooses which action to take... depending on the people in power (this is a combination of the 2, basically) and that every other state is also concerned with itself (Realist) and how it looks to others (Liberal).

I think the world is basically in perpetual conflict and see both balance and imbalance of power as contributing to it (this is a rejection of a Realist concept) and that progress (social or otherwise) is only a result of this conflict (this is a rejection of a Liberal concept).

So basically, I'm pretty much in the middle.

Anyone wanna share their own?
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 06:59:25 PM »

haha, i took IR my freshman year, best professor! 

Anyway, i can see how the realist perspective may seem explain a lot of history, but as we are increasingly becoming interdependent economically the muscle that was once needed for protection has softened into a power of cultural and idealogical influences.  If you look at Globalization as it were an ungoverned entity by nature, and it is the pursuit of self-interest that propels it.  But if you think about it it is the liberalism that perpetuates the idea that we are not citizens defined by the boundaries of out state, however we are citizens of the world, because in the end we all just want the same things. 

Also take into consideration there exists liberal realism and constructivism.  (there may be some overlay.)

I'd say everyone should just respect sovereignty and let's all live as one race, the human race... *hug me*
« Last Edit: March 23, 2008, 07:01:22 PM by PinkTickingClocks » Logged

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Abraxas
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« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2008, 07:49:56 AM »

I totally forgot I wrote this...


We were talking about the liberal expansion of Human Rights in the world and I made the mistake of not being a liberal.

We got into a debate over what constitutes basic human rights, of which I agreed were education, shelter, food and water. But then someone said healthcare and everyone nodded in agreement. Well, I put my hand up and questioned the idea that it was a human right.

"After all, if shelter, education, food and water are supplied, an individuals health is his own right... not the responcibility of the state."

Well, that didn't go over so well...

Anyway, I really like the class and the experience, and if I weren't already so far along on my engineering degree, I might very well switch my focus. But then what do I do with a degree in International Relations? Work for the UN? No thanks...
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2008, 09:25:22 AM »

I'm more of a  (Neo-)Realist. To me the world is more of a constant bargaining arena where nations try to gain the most advantages they can get. With the exception in treaties where several nations can find  common benefit if they work together on certain areas, basically saving a lot of money or become more influential in the world (Something similar to the EU).

And I'm a little bit pessismistic over certain issues even when I don't want to be... laugh
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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2008, 09:56:55 AM »

I totally forgot I wrote this...


We were talking about the liberal expansion of Human Rights in the world and I made the mistake of not being a liberal.
If you were a 'liberal' you would probably have been the only one in the room given that there is nothing 'liberal' about universal human rights.

We got into a debate over what constitutes basic human rights, of which I agreed were education, shelter, food and water. But then someone said healthcare and everyone nodded in agreement. Well, I put my hand up and questioned the idea that it was a human right.

"After all, if shelter, education, food and water are supplied, an individuals health is his own right... not the responcibility of the state."

Well, that didn't go over so well...
Being a true liberal, I would have objected to "shelter, education, food and water" being human rights.  Indeed, there are no human rights.  A quick tour of Africa will quickly confirm this universal truism.

Rights are nothing more than some privileges granted to some people in some states by some governments that are sometimes upheld.

Any survey of the world will quickly show that the vast majority of the world's population has no rights at all, not even food and water.  Ergo, the idea of 'human rights' is entirely an artificial, arbitrary and political construct.

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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2008, 10:01:06 AM »

I had some time on my hands and wanted to start this debate... so if people just ignore it, it's fine.

Anyway, I'm taking an International Relatins class as a Humanities credit, and while I basically knew a lot of what we're learning, I never really had terms for them. I also didn't know the motivations of each side, and while I usually disagree with putting people into "columns", I'm curious to see where people may stand on each concept.

Me? Well, I'm pretty sure I sit right on the fence.

I think individual groups inside each state decide its motivations (Liberal), but I think the concept of power for each country is important only in the sense of how much power that state has compared to others (Realist). I think the motivations of each group is usually only to gain more power, but the state ultimately chooses which action to take... depending on the people in power (this is a combination of the 2, basically) and that every other state is also concerned with itself (Realist) and how it looks to others (Liberal).

I think the world is basically in perpetual conflict and see both balance and imbalance of power as contributing to it (this is a rejection of a Realist concept) and that progress (social or otherwise) is only a result of this conflict (this is a rejection of a Liberal concept).

So basically, I'm pretty much in the middle.

Anyone wanna share their own?
I'd be questioning your professor here.  Seems like the defintion of "Liberal" being tossed around here here would apply to Nazi Germany's actions.  Ergo, there is something wrong with this definition since Hitler/Nazis were not liberal by any standard.

Certainly the actors within Nazi Germany determed Nazi German foreign policy and Nazi Germany was particularly concerned about how it appeared to other nations (the 1936 Olympic propaganda is particularly notable here).

Thus, according to your OP, Nazi Germany was following a "liberal" foreign policy.  That's absurd.




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Abraxas
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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2008, 10:19:51 AM »

I totally forgot I wrote this...


We were talking about the liberal expansion of Human Rights in the world and I made the mistake of not being a liberal.

If you were a 'liberal' you would probably have been the only one in the room given that there is nothing 'liberal' about universal human rights.

Why do you say that?

Granted, I'm new to the arena of foreign relations - or rather, the buisness of defining terms associated with it - but the general spread of basic human rights and peoples' condemnation for torture (once a public spectacle), to a liberal, shows public progress.

It's a major tenet of their philosophy, I thought, because it proves that progress is possible and the motivations of states do not wholly dictate global politics... but indidualism does.

Quote from: Dormouse
We got into a debate over what constitutes basic human rights, of which I agreed were education, shelter, food and water. But then someone said healthcare and everyone nodded in agreement. Well, I put my hand up and questioned the idea that it was a human right.

"After all, if shelter, education, food and water are supplied, an individuals health is his own right... not the responcibility of the state."

Well, that didn't go over so well...

Being a true liberal, I would have objected to "shelter, education, food and water" being human rights.  Indeed, there are no human rights.  A quick tour of Africa will quickly confirm this universal truism.

Rights are nothing more than some privileges granted to some people in some states by some governments that are sometimes upheld.

Any survey of the world will quickly show that the vast majority of the world's population has no rights at all, not even food and water.  Ergo, the idea of 'human rights' is entirely an artificial, arbitrary and political construct.

I don't deny that the spread of human rights has been relatively slow. In fact, I'm more of a realist in believing that human rights is really nothing more than an excuse used by other nations to intervene in the affairs of another (see: Iraq), but I think the general acceptance of human rights by the public is undeniable.

We're not killing people in public anymore and, more recently, people (in America, anyway) expressed condemnation at the prospect of the US torturing prisoners.

Again, liberals don't cite the spread of human rights as evidence of liberal theory, but rather the desire for them.

Quote from: Dormouse
I'd be questioning your professor here.  Seems like the defintion of "Liberal" being tossed around here here would apply to Nazi Germany's actions.  Ergo, there is something wrong with this definition since Hitler/Nazis were not liberal by any standard.

Certainly the actors within Nazi Germany determed Nazi German foreign policy and Nazi Germany was particularly concerned about how it appeared to other nations (the 1936 Olympic propaganda is particularly notable here).

Thus, according to your OP, Nazi Germany was following a "liberal" foreign policy.  That's absurd.

Liberal theory isn't entirely dependent on the idea that they care what others think.

Actually, I think all government orginizations are, by default, realist. Nazi Germany was concerned with the spread of their ideals and their relative power to the Communists and the European powers.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2008, 11:42:19 AM »

Sorry, I just deleted my entire reply since it was proving too tedious with this particular system software to deal with the errors caused by multiple nested quotations (and the brutally slow server that hosts this forum).

Perhaps I'll reply later.



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Abraxas
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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2008, 12:01:40 PM »

I'm sorry to hear that.

Anything I can help you with?
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2008, 04:13:59 PM »

THe world has ALWAYS operated under the guise of realism...its only until the very recent years (about 50 years or so) that liberalism has had any implementation...and even then, its not a prevalent as they would hope. 

Liberalism's pillars (free trade, human rights, IGO cooperation etc) are actually supported by realists....only when they give maximum gain to your nation state though.  The bottom line is, its not in man kinds genetics to cooperate all the time and violence in part of our nature.  You have to learn to embrace that and channel it into an effective force IMO.

My key takeaway from political theory:  While I'm a staunch realist, I feel its important to be surrounded by an equal force of liberals.  Balance is paramount!
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2008, 06:33:48 AM »

Liberalism and Realism both try to explain how the world's foreign affairs work (also Marxism). They are theories, not policies. Or at least they are supposed to be. However, I believe that country's actions cannot be explained by realism or liberalism, because in fact the people in charge of countries foreign relations act depending on what they believe to be true (which makes me a Social Constructivist I suppose). For example, American foreign policy tends to be of a more Realist bent than European foreign policy, because Realism is a theory more popular in American IR thought and books than it is in European IR thought. Therefore, American foreign policy often considers more confrontational courses of action than European foreign policy, because it is more likely to consider that other states are acting in the way predicted by Realism, whereas European thinkers expect other states to act in a way predicted by Liberalism (this is not a hard and fast rule, I am talking about generalities). So in fact, whether Liberalism or Realism is correct depends a lot on what people think is correct.
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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2008, 02:56:21 PM »

THe world has ALWAYS operated under the guise of realism...its only until the very recent years (about 50 years or so) that liberalism has had any implementation...and even then, its not a prevalent as they would hope.  
Agreed.  Though the origin of 'liberal internationalism' in foreign affairs pretty much ought to be considered as beginning with Woodrow Wilson and the establishment of the League of Nations in 1919.  This is the penultimate expression (in principle) of the idea of liberal internationalism.

That being said, it is quite debatable how much US foreign policy since WW2 has been 'realism' or 'liberal internationalism'.  I think the former has always been dominant in the USA. 

Quote from: neorealist
Liberalism's pillars (free trade, human rights, IGO cooperation etc) are actually supported by realists....only when they give maximum gain to your nation state though.  The bottom line is, its not in man kinds genetics to cooperate all the time and violence in part of our nature.  You have to learn to embrace that and channel it into an effective force IMO.
Yes, but that is because you are (perhaps) mixing up 'liberalism' as a general theory of economic policy with 'liberal-internationalism' as a general theory of foreign policy.  The two are not connected to each other in any ideological or theoretical way (other than a similarity of the term 'liberal').

That is to say, 'free trade' is a core principle of classical liberal economic theory - and usually favored by 'conservatives'.  This is always understood on the foreign policy side as a 'realist' policy (because it is self-serving - pushed by the large corporate interests), 'free trade' types of policy are never driven by 'liberal internationalists' who seem to abhor 'private-deal' trade agreements and prefer international or sectorial trade agreements (GATT and WTO) - or outright protectionism (oddly enough). 

Quote from: neorealist
My key takeaway from political theory:  While I'm a staunch realist, I feel its important to be surrounded by an equal force of liberals.  Balance is paramount!
This a good policy - and it fits your username! 

Personally, and in reference only to foreign policy issues, I've never been a liberal internationalist, but I've never been willing to accept the label of 'realist' due to the idea that 'realism' (in reality) means 'self-serving' in foreign policy lingo, and I don't accept that entirely as an ideal worthy of my support (it has plenty enough on its own because it is 'self-serving' and thus doesn't need my analytical or theoretical assistance).  Smiley

I've always described my own foreign policy position as that of realpolitique, italized to denote that it is a French word, not an English one.  Catherine d'Medici (Queen of France) has been one of the most famous original models here, as would be the author of her favorite book - the grand master of realpolitique himself, Machiavelli.  To me, realpolitique is more complicated than mere 'self-interest'.  Though, perhaps this is only my own hubris.  I'll have to give this further thought to offer a rationally-based distinction between realpolitique and 'realism' approach.


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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2008, 03:14:12 PM »

Quote from: Abraxas
Quote from: Dormouse
Quote from: Abraxas
I totally forgot I wrote this...

We were talking about the liberal expansion of Human Rights in the world and I made the mistake of not being a liberal.
If you were a 'liberal' you would probably have been the only one in the room given that there is nothing 'liberal' about universal human rights.

Why do you say that?

Granted, I'm new to the arena of foreign relations - or rather, the buisness of defining terms associated with it - but the general spread of basic human rights and peoples' condemnation for torture (once a public spectacle), to a liberal, shows public progress.

It's a major tenet of their philosophy, I thought, because it proves that progress is possible and the motivations of states do not wholly dictate global politics... but indidualism does.
I think I've just answered this question in my reply to neorealist above.

That is to say, the term "liberal" gets tossed around pretty freely and easily gets mutated by fusing together disparate elements associated with the word "liberal".

A 'true' liberal must be one who is a classical liberal - holding to classical liberal economic theory ('free trade' is a good example) and holding to general 'utilitarian' type philosophy (cf. Bentham and JSMill). 

Alternatively, in foreign policy circles, a 'liberal' is a 'liberal internationalist' who supports the UN and humanitarian causes.

This is the confusion of terminology that I'm pointing out here in this thread.  Classical liberalism, economic liberalism, philosophical liberalism, political liberalism and liberal internationalism are not ideologically related things.  Indeed, it is the latter two that are most unlike first three.

Quote from: Abraxas
Certainly the actors within Nazi Germany determed Nazi German foreign policy and Nazi Germany was particularly concerned about how it appeared to other nations (the 1936 Olympic propaganda is particularly notable here).
It is a great pity for the sake of art that Leni Riefenstahl wasn't contracted to undertake a documentary of the 1936 Olympics!

Besides which, I'd take such examples of propaganda to be evidence of 'realism' at work.  Liberal internationalists know they have moral right on their side so they are sanctimonious about it.  It is only the 'realists' that need propaganda to spin the masses to support the self-serving policies of the elite rulers.

Quote from: Abraxas
Actually, I think all government orginizations are, by default, realist. Nazi Germany was concerned with the spread of their ideals and their relative power to the Communists and the European powers.
Sure.  There was NOTHING even remotely 'liberal internationalist' about the Nazis.  Their policies were always self-serving and 'realist'.
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Abraxas
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« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2008, 06:18:27 PM »

I think I've just answered this question in my reply to neorealist above.

That is to say, the term "liberal" gets tossed around pretty freely and easily gets mutated by fusing together disparate elements associated with the word "liberal".

A 'true' liberal must be one who is a classical liberal - holding to classical liberal economic theory ('free trade' is a good example) and holding to general 'utilitarian' type philosophy (cf. Bentham and JSMill). 

Alternatively, in foreign policy circles, a 'liberal' is a 'liberal internationalist' who supports the UN and humanitarian causes.

This is the confusion of terminology that I'm pointing out here in this thread.  Classical liberalism, economic liberalism, philosophical liberalism, political liberalism and liberal internationalism are not ideologically related things.  Indeed, it is the latter two that are most unlike first three.

Right, and I think what I'm saying about torture is exactly what a "Liberal Internationalist" would say in defense of international liberalism (heh... that sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud).

Quote from: Dormouse
Sure.  There was NOTHING even remotely 'liberal internationalist' about the Nazis.  Their policies were always self-serving and 'realist'.

And I never said otherwise.
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
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« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2008, 10:36:08 AM »

Right, and I think what I'm saying about torture is exactly what a "Liberal Internationalist" would say in defense of international liberalism (heh... that sounds ridiculous when you say it out loud).
Could you point out what you are staying about torture?  My brief review of this thread didn't find any reference to torture.
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