IAP Political Forum
July 05, 2008, 04:55:36 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Liberalism v. Realism  (Read 734 times)
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +196/-190
Posts: 3,406


"You do not speak for the rest"


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2008, 11:01:07 AM »

I mentioned itHERE, though, admittidly, I failed to flesh it out. It was part of my argument to show that UHR means something to liberals, not neccessarily cause they are concerned with UHR specifically, but rather the world's new \concern for UHR proves that statism is NOT the only determenent factor in world politics... but so is individualism.
Logged

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
Dormouse
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +22/-46
Posts: 323


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2008, 02:50:17 PM »

From your reference to torture in the OP...

Quote from: Abraxas
Granted, I'm new to the arena of foreign relations - or rather, the buisness of defining terms associated with it - but the general spread of basic human rights and peoples' condemnation for torture (once a public spectacle), to a liberal, shows public progress.
I suppose it does, but that's kind of facile and that's why I raised my disagreement at what this professor is apparently teaching you about the academic discipline of 'international relations'.  It seems like your class is only 'glossing over' this topic, rather than this being a full course in 'international relations'. 

Please forgive me, but I have taken many such courses in my undergraduate studies and also this topic impinges upon my graduate studies in philosophy (ethics), so I'm just probing a bit to see what your knowledge and interest level in this topic is.  My replies can be seem cryptic, obfusicating, pedantic or condescending if I don't 'tune' my replies appropriately.  I never know if others are high school, college, university or graduate-level students. Smiley

As for universal human rights, I'd say that even basic human rights haven't actually spread at all outside the 'Western Pale' as far as I can see.  Indeed, all the progress in 'human rights' is political progress in trying to build majority support for the idea inside the 'Western Pale'. 

To put it simply, Africa and South America have no more and no less human rights now than they have ever had, or had 50 or 100 years ago.  I'd be quite pleased to be proven wrong here, if anyone has any substantial evidence to the contrary.  I'm not talking about fanciful rhetoric in lofty statutes, laws or proclaimations here - I'm talking about actual results on the ground for poor people.  Poor people (outside the west) just don't have any actual human rights in actual reality.

As for torture, are you familiar with Michel Foucault's brilliant sociological study on the evolution of the character of state punishment since the 1500's?  Discipline and Punishment is the title - a very short book - along with Madness and Civilization a related study of how society treats mental illness - I recommend most highly.  Probably the single most impressive piece of academic analysis I've ever encountered (definitely accessible to a 'non-specialist' reading audience).

My point here is that 'torture as civic spectacle' disappeared a good century or two before the dawning of the 'enlightenment' and the birth of the ideals that have since spawned the ideals of 'universal human rights'.

Quote from: Abraxas
It's a major tenet of their philosophy, I thought, because it proves that progress is possible and the motivations of states do not wholly dictate global politics... but indidualism does.
Well yes, the idea that the human condition can theoretically be 'improved' is a fundamental tenet of classical liberalism and is the foundational distinction of 'tory vs whig' - the earlier terms for what is now deemed to be 'conservative vs liberal'.

As for the assertion that the actions of individuals can have international effects, that is an unproven assertion that is popular on both the left and the right.  I've see little evidence of it in a modern context.

Quote from: Abraxas
It was part of my argument to show that UHR means something to liberals, not neccessarily cause they are concerned with UHR specifically, but rather the world's new \concern for UHR proves that statism is NOT the only determenent factor in world politics... but so is individualism.
That's a reasonable argument to make. 

Personally, I'd reject the argument because true classical liberalism is traditionally as suspicious of the state as they are of large corporations or religious institutions.  Classical liberalism seems to ally with the statist principle only on the basis of a 'lesser of two evils' principle (holding that statism is less bad than anarchism).

Statism is a passion only of authoritarians.  No liberty-loving liberal can love the state.

And this brings us to the infamous American cultural 'redefinition' that liberalism=socialism.  Of course, socialists always love the state.  Real liberals don't.  But if one 're-defines' liberalism as socialism (as is extremely common in the USA) then it does make sense to say that liberals love the state.
Logged
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +196/-190
Posts: 3,406


"You do not speak for the rest"


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2008, 07:58:24 AM »

I suppose it does, but that's kind of facile and that's why I raised my disagreement at what this professor is apparently teaching you about the academic discipline of 'international relations'.  It seems like your class is only 'glossing over' this topic, rather than this being a full course in 'international relations'.

Please forgive me, but I have taken many such courses in my undergraduate studies and also this topic impinges upon my graduate studies in philosophy (ethics), so I'm just probing a bit to see what your knowledge and interest level in this topic is.  My replies can be seem cryptic, obfusicating, pedantic or condescending if I don't 'tune' my replies appropriately.  I never know if others are high school, college, university or graduate-level students. Smiley

Well... it's really "Introduction to International Relations"... the first part of what I believe to be a 5 or 6 part saga education.

It's not my major (it's Naval Architecture). It's just an elective I thought I would enjoy.

Quote from: Dormouse
As for universal human rights, I'd say that even basic human rights haven't actually spread at all outside the 'Western Pale' as far as I can see.  Indeed, all the progress in 'human rights' is political progress in trying to build majority support for the idea inside the 'Western Pale'. 

To put it simply, Africa and South America have no more and no less human rights now than they have ever had, or had 50 or 100 years ago.  I'd be quite pleased to be proven wrong here, if anyone has any substantial evidence to the contrary.  I'm not talking about fanciful rhetoric in lofty statutes, laws or proclaimations here - I'm talking about actual results on the ground for poor people.  Poor people (outside the west) just don't have any actual human rights in actual reality.

As for torture, are you familiar with Michel Foucault's brilliant sociological study on the evolution of the character of state punishment since the 1500's?  Discipline and Punishment is the title - a very short book - along with Madness and Civilization a related study of how society treats mental illness - I recommend most highly.  Probably the single most impressive piece of academic analysis I've ever encountered (definitely accessible to a 'non-specialist' reading audience).

My point here is that 'torture as civic spectacle' disappeared a good century or two before the dawning of the 'enlightenment' and the birth of the ideals that have since spawned the ideals of 'universal human rights'.

Well, I do believe she said torture began to fade from public entertainment because of the Enlightenment, but I could have misunderstood her.

Also, she's not a bad teacher. She's one of the few I've ever liked and we've talked privately after class a few times. I think she feels constrained by trying to equally present, prove and disprove each theory as to not seem like she's indoctrinating anyone.

Few people really walk in with an opinion on the subject and I'm sure she doesn't want to accidentally make on for them.

Quote from: Dormouse
Well yes, the idea that the human condition can theoretically be 'improved' is a fundamental tenet of classical liberalism and is the foundational distinction of 'tory vs whig' - the earlier terms for what is now deemed to be 'conservative vs liberal'.

As for the assertion that the actions of individuals can have international effects, that is an unproven assertion that is popular on both the left and the right.  I've see little evidence of it in a modern context.

Well, she tried to say the "Boomerang Effect" was evidence of that, but for the essay question on our recent test I took a radical departure from the intention of the question (to just explain the Boomerang Effect) and said that despite it's minor flaws, it was severely flawed.

Without motivation or benefit, no state or IGO will intervene.

Quote from: Dormouse
That's a reasonable argument to make. 

Personally, I'd reject the argument because true classical liberalism is traditionally as suspicious of the state as they are of large corporations or religious institutions.  Classical liberalism seems to ally with the statist principle only on the basis of a 'lesser of two evils' principle (holding that statism is less bad than anarchism).

Statism is a passion only of authoritarians.  No liberty-loving liberal can love the state.

And this brings us to the infamous American cultural 'redefinition' that liberalism=socialism.  Of course, socialists always love the state.  Real liberals don't.  But if one 're-defines' liberalism as socialism (as is extremely common in the USA) then it does make sense to say that liberals love the state.

I know what you mean.

UHC = Socialized medicine Roll Eyes

I'm not even a fan of UHC but I won't stoop to such ridiculous lows. It's absurd.

But what's more absurd is that it actually works.
Logged

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
Dormouse
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +22/-46
Posts: 323


View Profile
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2008, 09:37:47 AM »

Well... it's really "Introduction to International Relations"... the first part of what I believe to be a 5 or 6 part saga education.

It's not my major (it's Naval Architecture). It's just an elective I thought I would enjoy.
I presume that's a college level course?  In that case, I stand by my critique of the professor doing a half-assed job of it.

Quote from: Abraxas
Well, I do believe she said torture began to fade from public entertainment because of the Enlightenment, but I could have misunderstood her.
It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this is what your professor is saying.

So many people in academia study only one topic all their lives and often lack any context of that topic vis-a-vis other topics like history.  They thus make silly mistakes like this since it is so 'common sensical' that the Enlightenment ended torture as public spectacle.  It takes one with an obsession wtih history to note that the public spectacle of torture ended long, long before the Englightenment began.

Quote from: Abraxas
Also, she's not a bad teacher. She's one of the few I've ever liked and we've talked privately after class a few times. I think she feels constrained by trying to equally present, prove and disprove each theory as to not seem like she's indoctrinating anyone.
If I were the Dean (which I'm not) I'd like to see her fired for that.

Kudos for the attempt to not perceive indoctrination.  It is her denial of the game that strikes me as pandering to you.

Teaching is indoctrinating and any teacher that pretends they are not indoctrinating you is a liar, a sham and a fool.  Education is by definition 'indoctrination' with knowledge.  It cannot be anything but.


Quote from: Abraxas
Well, she tried to say the "Boomerang Effect" was evidence of that, but for the essay question on our recent test I took a radical departure from the intention of the question (to just explain the Boomerang Effect) and said that despite it's minor flaws, it was severely flawed.

Without motivation or benefit, no state or IGO will intervene.
Agreed. 

Though, it should be noted that 'liberal internationalism' can be justified on the grounds of self-interest.

Quote from: Abraxas
I know what you mean.

UHC = Socialized medicine Roll Eyes

I'm not even a fan of UHC but I won't stoop to such ridiculous lows. It's absurd.

But what's more absurd is that it actually works.
Yes, those who oppose universal healthcare policies on the basis that 'they don't work' are just plain wrong and in serious denial.  The evidence and data that these programs work pretty damn well in most Western countries is plentiful and well documented. 

As far as I know, only Britain's system qualifies for the 'tag' of 'socialized medicine' as that's what their policy really is all about (with doctors drawing a salary from the state like civil servants).  This is entirely unlike France or Canada (for example).


Logged
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +196/-190
Posts: 3,406


"You do not speak for the rest"


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2008, 01:02:21 PM »

I presume that's a college level course?  In that case, I stand by my critique of the professor doing a half-assed job of it.
...

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this is what your professor is saying.

So many people in academia study only one topic all their lives and often lack any context of that topic vis-a-vis other topics like history.  They thus make silly mistakes like this since it is so 'common sensical' that the Enlightenment ended torture as public spectacle.  It takes one with an obsession wtih history to note that the public spectacle of torture ended long, long before the Englightenment began.

...

If I were the Dean (which I'm not) I'd like to see her fired for that.

Kudos for the attempt to not perceive indoctrination.  It is her denial of the game that strikes me as pandering to you.

Teaching is indoctrinating and any teacher that pretends they are not indoctrinating you is a liar, a sham and a fool.  Education is by definition 'indoctrination' with knowledge.  It cannot be anything but.

Ok, first of all, I think you're being WAY to rough on her. You only have what I've said to work with and while I appreciate the confidence, I am susceptable to misunderstanding people. Also, remember that this is an introductory level class (with 70 kids in it), and it wouldn't surprise me that the classes are a little broad in their direction at the moment.

For the purpose of this class at this level, critical thinking of the topics is not necessarily required. It's encouraged, appreciated and commended, but not required. Not now. This is a brief introduction to the defenitions and bounderies of international politics. It's simmered down into a basic laundry list to make digestion easier.

I have no doubt in my mind the classes turn into full fledged debates in later courses (because they have less students and therefor can have debates)... but again, this is merely an introduction, and as a result, the teacher is corseted by the material because at the moment most people (in my class, anyway) are not fit to choose and she doesn't want to make a choice for us by giving one theory more mic time than another.

I'm sure, given how long she's been in this, that she has some kind of opinion. I had one going in that really hasn't changed much, it's just I have new words to use if it ever comes up in conversation.

Again, you have to understand that this is just an introductory level class.

Quote from: Dormouse
Agreed. 

Though, it should be noted that 'liberal internationalism' can be justified on the grounds of self-interest.

Right, but a Realist cites the state's intrests as the only intrests that dictate international politics.

A liberal would cite the intrests of the political party in charge, powerful companies or even an individual in a state as actors in international politics. Realists generally don't.

Quote from: Dormouse
Yes, those who oppose universal healthcare policies on the basis that 'they don't work' are just plain wrong and in serious denial.  The evidence and data that these programs work pretty damn well in most Western countries is plentiful and well documented. 

As far as I know, only Britain's system qualifies for the 'tag' of 'socialized medicine' as that's what their policy really is all about (with doctors drawing a salary from the state like civil servants).  This is entirely unlike France or Canada (for example).

Well, like I said, I don't really agree with UHC. It looks like the federal government has a penchant for fucking up large, federal programs like this and I just don't want to see our physical health suffer as a result of buerocracy and incompetence.
Logged

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
- Noam Chomsky

... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back.
- Hunter S. Thompson
neorealist
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +31/-27
Posts: 771


Mod of further light


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2008, 06:37:56 PM »

THe world has ALWAYS operated under the guise of realism...its only until the very recent years (about 50 years or so) that liberalism has had any implementation...and even then, its not a prevalent as they would hope.   
Agreed.  Though the origin of 'liberal internationalism' in foreign affairs pretty much ought to be considered as beginning with Woodrow Wilson and the establishment of the League of Nations in 1919.  This is the penultimate expression (in principle) of the idea of liberal internationalism.

That being said, it is quite debatable how much US foreign policy since WW2 has been 'realism' or 'liberal internationalism'.  I think the former has always been dominant in the USA. 

Quote from: neorealist
Liberalism's pillars (free trade, human rights, IGO cooperation etc) are actually supported by realists....only when they give maximum gain to your nation state though.  The bottom line is, its not in man kinds genetics to cooperate all the time and violence in part of our nature.  You have to learn to embrace that and channel it into an effective force IMO.
Yes, but that is because you are (perhaps) mixing up 'liberalism' as a general theory of economic policy with 'liberal-internationalism' as a general theory of foreign policy.  The two are not connected to each other in any ideological or theoretical way (other than a similarity of the term 'liberal').

That is to say, 'free trade' is a core principle of classical liberal economic theory - and usually favored by 'conservatives'.  This is always understood on the foreign policy side as a 'realist' policy (because it is self-serving - pushed by the large corporate interests), 'free trade' types of policy are never driven by 'liberal internationalists' who seem to abhor 'private-deal' trade agreements and prefer international or sectorial trade agreements (GATT and WTO) - or outright protectionism (oddly enough). 

Quote from: neorealist
My key takeaway from political theory:  While I'm a staunch realist, I feel its important to be surrounded by an equal force of liberals.  Balance is paramount!
This a good policy - and it fits your username! 

Personally, and in reference only to foreign policy issues, I've never been a liberal internationalist, but I've never been willing to accept the label of 'realist' due to the idea that 'realism' (in reality) means 'self-serving' in foreign policy lingo, and I don't accept that entirely as an ideal worthy of my support (it has plenty enough on its own because it is 'self-serving' and thus doesn't need my analytical or theoretical assistance).  Smiley

I've always described my own foreign policy position as that of realpolitique, italized to denote that it is a French word, not an English one.  Catherine d'Medici (Queen of France) has been one of the most famous original models here, as would be the author of her favorite book - the grand master of realpolitique himself, Machiavelli.  To me, realpolitique is more complicated than mere 'self-interest'.  Though, perhaps this is only my own hubris.  I'll have to give this further thought to offer a rationally-based distinction between realpolitique and 'realism' approach.




I don't think there is a difference...at least its not taught in mainstream IR theory today.
Logged

Dormouse
Sr. Member
****

Karma: +22/-46
Posts: 323


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2008, 08:39:07 AM »

I don't think there is a difference...at least its not taught in mainstream IR theory today.
I totally agree.  However, I believe there may in fact be a real difference.  Perhaps in the 'term' used as the frame of reference.  Realism seems to only consider the most short term of interests.  Realpolitique seems to focus upon long term interests.

Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.181 seconds with 24 queries.