Terry Mathis
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« on: March 23, 2008, 08:17:22 AM » |
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It seems that way. An agreement was signed in Yemen for the two factions, Hamas and Fatah, to get back to the pre-violent takeover by Hamas in Gaza. Has Hamas finally realized it is not so easy to be responsible for a lot of its own Palestinian people? http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/03/24/2197156.htm?section=world |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2008, 02:13:05 PM » |
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Hamas had to come to realise that they are unable mentaly, structuraly, intellectualy, to govern even a small piece of land.
They have no idea what it is. They don't know what being in politics means. Haniyeh is not at ease in his new suit and a tie around his neck because he never wore that sort of clothes before.
One year after everybody told them they still don't seem to understand that you can't be a governement and a fanatic group active in daily violences and over-the-border rocket fires.
Hamas is unable to understand what is obvious to anyone.
But they are forced to, at least act as if they finaly understood.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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gommi
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2008, 04:02:13 PM » |
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hem they still don't seem to understand that you can't be a governement and a fanatic group active in daily violences and over-the-border rocket fires.
Hamas is unable to understand what is obvious to anyone.
But they are forced to, at least act as if they finaly understood. Very true. As you stated, no militant government is capable of adequately serving a citizenry. Now with the two parties interacting, a system more resembling democracy may appear. |
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\"Ideological and moral confusion are signs of a higher consciousness\".
__IAPer since 2004__
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machioveli
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2008, 04:50:36 PM » |
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Big mistake by Fatah in my opinion. Hamas is only looking for a way out to rebuild and continue thier destructive ways. The world only ask 3 things of them when they were elected: recognizing Israel, accepting agreements made by the defeated Fatah regime and denouncing violence. Simple demands to keep critical aid flowing to its own people. I think this proves that they do not give a damn about anyone and are not capable of running an government.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2008, 05:46:25 AM » |
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hem they still don't seem to understand that you can't be a governement and a fanatic group active in daily violences and over-the-border rocket fires.
Hamas is unable to understand what is obvious to anyone.
But they are forced to, at least act as if they finaly understood. Very true. As you stated, no militant government is capable of adequately serving a citizenry. Now with the two parties interacting, a system more resembling democracy may appear. Seems to be a 'mix-up' with negotiations between Hamas and Fatah: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3522964,00.htmland http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/24/africa/ME-GEN-Palestinians-No-Unity.php |
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« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 11:31:05 AM by Terry Mathis »
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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realityman
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2008, 01:08:04 PM » |
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Big mistake by Fatah in my opinion. Hamas is only looking for a way out to rebuild and continue thier destructive ways... I totally agree. Any government including Hamas has no chance at any sort of meaningful or lasting peace... (unless Hamas changes who "Hamas" is, and that seems very unlikely by their own words and actions). It's a quite simple formula the Palestinian people don't seem to want to 'get"... Hamas seeks Israel's destruction... They make no secret of this... Whether they control parts of what may become a Palestinian State, whether they're part of the government, or whether they're simply an organization ALLOWED TO OPERATE and seek their violent agenda un-policed under other Palestinian leadership, there is no chance for a meaningful, lasting peace. Until Palestinians themselves (or Palestinians with outside help) deal effectively with this terrorist group who clearly have no plans to chance their agenda on their own, there can be no meaningful peace. That the Palestinian people elected this terrorist group into power should shed some light as to the "mentality" Israel is dealing with here on a daily basis. Fatah's "cowering" to them (once again) only exposes their weakness and lack of meaningful control. Yet Fatah is negotiating peace?? One might ask... with what?? Hamas won't accept a Fatah negotiated peace or Israeli borders no matter where they are. And Fatah won't effectively confront/deal with Hamas.... soooo... (??)... The Covenant of Hamas (for anyone who might have an interest in how THEY... in THEIR OWN WORDS... have set their agenda: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm |
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2008, 03:06:24 PM » |
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The same could have been argued of PLO and Arafat until 1988.... Oh wait it was! Any political movement (or even terrorist movements with political ambitions, like our PKK) have to moderate at some point or become irrelevant. In my opinion Hamas is actually realizing that violence is not the means to a viable solution to the Palestinian problem. First step will be ending inter-Palestinian fighting. At some point further down the road they will also realize they will have to engage Israel in manner different to how they've been engaged so far. They'll have to sit at a table with the Israelis and talk if they ever wish to have a future in Palestinian peoples affairs. They'll have to realize at some point that only those who sit at the taple with Israel and the US and the international community at large has relevance as far as the future of Palestine is concerned. Once they realize that then their charter and everything else about them will change. Just give it time. Like I said 20 years ago Fatah and Arafat and the PLO were the terrorists avowed to destruction of Israel too..... Big mistake by Fatah in my opinion. Hamas is only looking for a way out to rebuild and continue thier destructive ways... I totally agree. Any government including Hamas has no chance at any sort of meaningful or lasting peace... (unless Hamas changes who "Hamas" is, and that seems very unlikely by their own words and actions). It's a quite simple formula the Palestinian people don't seem to want to 'get"... Hamas seeks Israel's destruction... They make no secret of this... Whether they control parts of what may become a Palestinian State, whether they're part of the government, or whether they're simply an organization ALLOWED TO OPERATE and seek their violent agenda un-policed under other Palestinian leadership, there is no chance for a meaningful, lasting peace. Until Palestinians themselves (or Palestinians with outside help) deal effectively with this terrorist group who clearly have no plans to chance their agenda on their own, there can be no meaningful peace. That the Palestinian people elected this terrorist group into power should shed some light as to the "mentality" Israel is dealing with here on a daily basis. Fatah's "cowering" to them (once again) only exposes their weakness and lack of meaningful control. Yet Fatah is negotiating peace?? One might ask... with what?? Hamas won't accept a Fatah negotiated peace or Israeli borders no matter where they are. And Fatah won't effectively confront/deal with Hamas.... soooo... (??)... The Covenant of Hamas (for anyone who might have an interest in how THEY... in THEIR OWN WORDS... have set their agenda: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm |
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realityman
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2008, 04:33:22 PM » |
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...In my opinion Hamas is actually realizing that violence is not the means to a viable solution to the Palestinian problem.
I wish I could agree with that opinion... but I've yet to see any meaningful evidence of this. Hamas regularly fires Kassams at Israel civilian centers... then proudly claims responsibility... They openly celebrated and praised the suicide bombing which killed 8(?) mostly under 18 year old students... and this was only a few weeks ago. Because the KKK isn't hanging as many African Americans lately, doesn't mean their views regarding them has changed. The leaders of Hamas still advocate the agenda under which they were founded... No recognition of Israel, and the goal of Israel's destruction. They've been kind enough to document this agenda: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm - ...and have never publicly (to my knowledge) indicated any desire to change these goals or agenda. I've seen no evidence to indicate that any semblance of moderation is anything more than temporary measures to ease the pressure on them. The day I see (and see in writing) formal statements from Hamas' leadership... and confirmation of such statements indicating Hamas is willing to accept Israel's existence (without terms which would ultimately mean it's destruction)... is the day I start seeing a possible light at the end of the tunnel... If you or anyone has such evidence, I'd be anxious to see it... but the overwhelming indications from Hamas, time and time again, are that little if anything has changed from their perspective. |
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« Last Edit: March 24, 2008, 05:42:22 PM by realityman »
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2008, 09:08:38 PM » |
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I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation.....
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2008, 09:17:12 PM » |
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yilmaz, you give Hamas too much credit. The only time I have ever seen them back down or act peacefully is when they want to rebuild and restock...
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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realityman
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« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2008, 09:09:05 AM » |
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I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... By "recognition", what's usually meant is the acceptance of a "right to exist"... Certainly Hamas (and all related miltant groups) realizes and "recognizes" that Israel "exists"... It's hard to deny...It's on maps (other than some Arab/Muslim maps)... It's recognized by other governments, has it's own currency, military, government, leadership, etc... What Hamas refuses to accept is Israel's right to exist... and defend itself against those who seek to do it and it's citizens harm. As Terry Alluded to, We've only seen Hamas offer ceasefires, or quiet periods and only on temporary basis... Hamas would love a ceasefire so they could be free to rearm, reorganize, etc...without the threat of being policed by Israel. Hamas will/and has no-doubt sit/sat down with Israel whether formally or informally through back channels... Hamas is struggling to survive as an entity and will do and/or say almost anything to stay in power... If we recall back to the defunked "unity government"... This wasn't something Hamas wanted, but something they "sort of" did in a failed attempt to avoid being cut off from funding... The press was quick to jump on this stating that Hamas, in agreeing to be part of a unity government with Fatah, was somehow indirect "recognition" of Israel... Hamas was only too quick to squelch these "rumors" through statements by their leadership... The "unity government" never got anywhere as Hamas refused to openly recognize Israel's right to exist and abide by previous agreements... The "talk" was they they were moderating, but in reality they never agreed to change anything of substance regarding their agenda of Israel's elimination... As I stated: The day I see (and see in writing) formal statements from Hamas' leadership... and confirmation of such statements indicating Hamas is willing to accept Israel's existence (meaning their right to exist) (without terms which would ultimately mean it's destruction)... is the day I start seeing a possible light at the end of the tunnel... If you or anyone has such evidence, I'd be anxious to see it... but the overwhelming indications from Hamas, time and time again, are that little if anything has changed from their perspective. |
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yilmaz101
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« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2008, 09:45:48 PM » |
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Well your day will eventually come too. But common sense tells me mine will come before yours. After defacto recognition of Israel and its right to exist, as in Hamas being engaged in a peace process with an entity that they have not recognized as being legitimate (hensce the issue of right to exist) they will have to at some point make a formal recognition, if only to secure a Palestinian homeland where Hamas itself will have the right to exist.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 10:47:41 AM » |
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I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation.....
If Hamas does that, all the hard core fanatics will leave Hamas and create another movements for the same violence and peace will be nowhere once again. So far Hamas exists only through these hard core elements. It's not because it' "Hamas", it's because too many poeple are hard core fanatics. If Hamas make "peace" with Israel, these fanatics will still be there. Anyway in a foreseable future, Hamas will stil be the gang who fires Qassam rocket at Israel and nothing else. |
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 10:57:10 AM » |
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I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation.....
If Hamas does that, all the hard core fanatics will leave Hamas and create another movements for the same violence and peace will be nowhere once again. So far Hamas exists only through these hard core elements. It's not because it' "Hamas", it's because too many poeple are hard core fanatics. If Hamas make "peace" with Israel, these fanatics will still be there. Anyway in a foreseable future, Hamas will stil be the gang who fires Qassam rocket at Israel and nothing else. Well then, get ready for a MAJOR Israeli incursion into Gaza, and for them to keep 20-40km when they are done.  |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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realityman
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2008, 03:13:24 PM » |
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If Hamas does that, all the hard core fanatics will leave Hamas and create another movements for the same violence and peace will be nowhere once again.
So far Hamas exists only through these hard core elements. It's not because it' "Hamas", it's because too many poeple are hard core fanatics. If Hamas make "peace" with Israel, these fanatics will still be there.
...
An excellent point Fred.... It's not so much "Hamas" as an entity, but the widespread IDEOLOGY of destoying Israel, terror, glorifying their "martyrs" who kill innocent Israelis/Jews (etc) which Hamas has come to represent. There are numerous offshoots of Hamas and even Fatah which condone this agenda. So long as the ideology represented by these groups remains... and remains basically un-policed by "their own", I see little hope for any meaningful, lasting peace. |
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« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 03:28:55 PM by realityman »
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