Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

machioveli

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2008, 02:15:29 PM »

The people of Palestine are suffering because of the choices Hamas (who they voted for) are making http://thepost.com.pk/IntNews.aspx?dtlid=154862&catid=1. Kind of like we are with Bush Cheesy


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Dormouse

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2008, 02:20:12 PM »

Quote from: gommi

Very true. As you stated, no militant government is capable of adequately serving a citizenry.

Really? I should think the militant revolutionaries of 1776 did a pretty darn good job of it.

Oliver Cromwell's (revolutionary) Commonwealth was also quite functionally successful in administering the government.

One might also add Lenin and Castro's revolutionary governments -- though they were both ugly and authoritarian, they were quite functional states that achieved remarkable results under extremely challenging conditions.

Ergo, I don't think it is reasonable to say that militants or revolutionaries can't govern. In some cases, they most certainly can and do.

Quote from: yilmaz101 on March 24, 2008, 09:08:38 PM

I'd say the day Hamas sits at the table negotiating the future of Palestine with Israel is the day they've accepted Israel, you don't talk to someone whose authority you don't accpept, especailly about soveigrnty issues... So Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel. By the way Saudi Arabia has not ever recognized Israel, and they're still technically at war with Israel, since 48. Their rhetorich though does not stop them from having unofficial contact with Isreel, deoes it? So for Hamas lso there'll abe defacto recognitgion before therre is any documentation.....

I'm inclined to agree with your general point, however, I disagree that "Hamas has only got a little more time until they are forced to negotiate with Israel". I see no rational basis for that conclusion.

Hamas appears to have increased their stature and prestige within the Palestinian and wider Arabic community over the last dozen years or so is precisely because they have 'stood up' where Fatah has faltered. The rise of Hamas in Palestinian politics is mostly due to the failures of Fatah.

I also think Israel and the US appear to be paying a price here (in Hamas intransience) for foolishly humiliating Arafat. He was a corrupt old fool, but he had been politically tamed. If you wipe out the moderate base, there is only the hardline radicals left...

As for the general issue of Israel and Palestine, I'm probably a lot more of a centerist on the issue than the majority in this thread. I've always believed the old 'two-state' solution was the only viable one - ironic that both Israel and the Arabs refused it outright (with identical reasons) back when it was originally proposed in the late 1940's.

As it stands, I see no signs on either side of the issue (Israeli or Palestine) that indicates any kind of reduction in hostilities is likely or near. It always takes two to tango.


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realityman

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2008, 03:03:22 PM »

Quote from: Dormouse on April 10, 2008, 02:20:12 PM

.... I've always believed the old 'two-state' solution was the only viable one - ironic that both Israel and the Arabs refused it outright (with identical reasons) back when it was originally proposed in the late 1940's....

Huh??

BOTH refused it?? With "identical reasons"??

Maybe you can elaborate on those points Huh?

.

As I recall, it was the Jews/Israel who's representatives agreed to Resolution 181 (on far less land that the Palestine Mandate and Balfour Declaration clearly implied)... and the Arabs who rejected it opting instead for a war to destroy Israel (??) Huh?

Quote

On 29 November 1947 the United Nations General Assembly approved a plan, UN General Assembly Resolution 181, to resolve the Arab-Jewish conflict by partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab... The Zionist leadership accepted the partition plan as "the indispensable minimum," glad as they were with the international recognition... the representatives of the Palestinian Arabs and the Arab League firmly opposed the UN action and even rejected its authority...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/1990_1999/1999/3/The%20Status%20of%20General%20Assembly%20Resolution%20181%20-II-


« Last Edit: April 12, 2008, 07:11:51 AM by realityman »	Logged

Dormouse

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 07:24:43 AM »

Quote from: realityman on April 11, 2008, 03:03:22 PM

Huh??

BOTH refused it?? With "identical reasons"??

Maybe you can elaborate on those points Huh?

I stand corrected with respect to 1947.

My point was a general one regarding the 1948 to present day. But you are correct - back in 1947 the Jewish representatives were 'officially' on board the two-state policy (though, to be honest, they had no choice at all since that was the ONLY route available for Israeli Statehood). Once the deal was done, both sides had the 'shared' interest in rejecting the two state model, both mistakenly believing that they could 'eliminate' the hated 2nd state to their own advantage.

It seems that the 'two-states' solution is only now coming to be widely accepted by both sides on the basis that they both have utterly failed in their attempts to eliminate the other.

In other words the 'two' state solution has always been a second choice for both parties (except for one brief shining moment in 1947 when the Jews needed to support the idea in order to get their State established).


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Robin Hood

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 12:28:03 PM »

Hamas won the Palestinian elections. They fight a war against the brutal occupier, childrenkiller and land stealer, Israel.


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Ahkenaten

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2008, 09:00:59 AM »

zzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz

Palestinians have never once been interested in peace. They brainwash their children into hate and martyrism. THEY are the child killers. When you send your own child loaded with explosives to go and kill himself and other children that makes you a child killer --- unless you are also hopelessly brainwashed to the point you dont know which way is up.

They fight a war that doesn't have to be fought and arab pride -- irrevocably hurt during the 6 day war when they were made fools --- is what stumps peace, not Israel. Arabs wouldn't pull a hair for Palestinans.

Ahk


« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 09:06:26 AM by Ahkenaten »	Logged

machioveli

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2008, 03:36:28 PM »

Quote from: Robin Hood on April 14, 2008, 12:28:03 PM

Hamas won the Palestinian elections. They fight a war against the brutal occupier, childrenkiller and land stealer, Israel.

You are exactly right. As I have stated before they are paying the consequences for it. You stated Hamas is the leading government and is fighting a war against Israel, so do not beg for mercy when they fight back.


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realityman

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2008, 06:12:04 PM »

Quote from: Dormouse on April 14, 2008, 07:24:43 AM

.... Once the deal was done, both sides had the 'shared' interest in rejecting the two state model, both mistakenly believing that they could 'eliminate' the hated 2nd state to their own advantage....

Again.... huh?? Huh?

If you'd care to check your history, Israel has won it's wars, and VOLUNTARILY pulled back from the vast majority of the land it captured during those wars... Furthermore, there has never been a "Palestinian State" to attempt to eliminate... and Israel has never attempted to claim Palestine west of the Jordan river as "Israel" since agreeing to the original partition...So again... Huh?

Quote from: Dormouse

...It seems that the 'two-states' solution is only now coming to be widely accepted by both sides on the basis that they both have utterly failed in their attempts to eliminate the other...

Again...the attempted balancing act??.... "Widely accepted by both sides"... "only now"??..... As indicated above... it's some (and only "some") of the Arab side who've only recently come to embrace this idea... AS THEY'VE LOST ALL THEIR NUMEROUS ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY ISRAEL... Israel has made numerous offers to the Arab/Palestinian side over the years and has long ago agreed to and made offers based on the idea of a second Arab state in Palestine (second to Jordan which makes up 77% of what was the Palestine Mandate)...The first Arab state to recognize Israel's right to exist... didn't recognize such until 1978... some 30 years after it's formation... hmmm Wink

With all due respect... you seem anxious to try to "balance the scales" (or show some "shared interest"?),... to equate one side to the other, you're ignoring or clearly haven't researched basic historical facts on this subject. Is this a subject you're familiar with or are you just trying to show both sides being equally bad/good??


« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 04:07:59 AM by realityman »	Logged

Dormouse

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2008, 09:09:20 AM »

Quote from: realityman on April 15, 2008, 06:12:04 PM

Again.... huh?? Huh?

Since '48, Israel has had a state. It was the Arab side (long before the concept of a unique "Palestinian People" existed) which refused to accept Israel on any borders and waged war. If you recall, the Arabs had '67 borders (under Jordanian and Egyptian "occupation"), but those borders were again not enough (as '48 borders weren't enough in '48).. They (the Arab/Muslims) waged more war, losing again. ... And how many times did Arafat walk from the peace table with NOTHING only to wage more violence?? Again...If Israel wanted all of historic Palestine west of the Jordan river to be "Israel" (as you implied), it would have formally made such a declaration long ago... AGAIN, Israel won it's wars and voluntarily pulled back to borders it deemed defensible from those who obviously (by their actions) sought and seek to do it and it's citizens harm. Having to police a violent neighbor who refused to police themselves and who's elected government openly seeks Israel's destruction (ever read the Covenant of Hamas?? http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm ) is in no one's best interest... But until the Palestinians have demonstrated through their actions an ability and willingness to live in peace, others (namely Israel) have to police them.

...

Again...the attempted balancing act??.... "Widely accepted by both sides"... "only now"??..... As indicated above... it's some (and only "some") of the Arab side who've only recently come to embrace this idea... AS THEY'VE LOST ALL THEIR NUMEROUS ATTEMPTS TO DESTROY ISRAEL... Israel has made numerous offers to the Arab/Palestinian side over the years and has long ago agreed to and made offers based on the idea of a second Arab state in Palestine (second to Jordan which makes up 77% of what was the Palestine Mandate)...The first Arab state to recognize Israel's right to exist... didn't recognize such until 1978... some 30 years after it's formation... hmmm Wink

You are quite right that I see an even balance here with two sides that are notoriously prone to lie, engage in aggressive acts and flood the world with propaganda to support their view.

I find pro-Israeli propaganda as biased as pro-Palestinian propaganda.

About the only interesting feature of the dispute is to note (at least in North America) how the issue is perfectly mirrored along US right-left ideological lines. When a topic is dominated by ideological opponents, the issue is no longer Israel or Palestine.

Unlike the ideologes on both sides of the fence on this issue, I have no need or desire to engage either of them on this topic or to try to discuss issue. Experience has taught me the futility of it.


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realityman

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Re: Is Hamas Losing It, Literally?

« Reply #24 on: April 16, 2008, 12:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Dormouse on April 16, 2008, 09:09:20 AM

You are quite right that I see an even balance here with two sides that are notoriously prone to lie, engage in aggressive acts and flood the world with propaganda to support their view.

And with all due respect, I would submit to you that... you see an "even balance" because that's what you want to see (regardless of what the actual facts might dictate).

I called into question what you presented as a basis for your "balancing act" post. I presented facts (easily researchable) and basic logic which countered what you presented... You don't want to back up your statements, yet you want to keep your "even balance" perspective?? hmmm

While certainly there is radical propaganda being spewed from both sides, there are also easily verifiable facts and basic logic easily applied to those facts..

Quote from: Dormouse

I have no need or desire to engage either of them on this topic or to try to discuss issue....

... which is clearly why you see an "even balance"... You want to see an even balance , and you know that if you actually had to research, support, and debate the related facts, that view would ultimately change one way or the other... And you clearly don't want that.

OK, Fare enough.

Quote from: Dormouse

...Experience has taught me the futility of it...

Then I would ask what your purpose is here adding an opinion on this topic??

You expressed your opinions on the issue, but when it's shown that that opinion is based on misconceptions (as you presented them) and not on facts you can support, NOW you're not interested in it(??). (Well, I do appreciate your honesty)

While it's true that there's "futility" in trying to persuade hardliners from their positions, isn't the purpose of these boards... to learn ... to express opinions then to backup/support those positions/opinions versus others?? It's not much of a board if everyone is just here to express opinions only to avoid having to back them up when questioned.

I might have the opinion that the earth is flat... If I want to express that opinion, but then don't want to discuss it, back it up with facts, or acknowledge facts to the contrary, ...of what value is my opinion??

OK


« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 12:56:48 PM by realityman »	Logged

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