DIEGO
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« on: March 27, 2008, 02:24:30 AM » |
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I start reading the "Kosovo independence" post and consider to include the next new in that post, but finally, I decided to create a new one because I guess that, for sure, they are completely different things. I think that plans for Scotland independence are not a new thing but dates are getting closer. Is there any British who could give us a point of view of the issue? What most Scottish people would think about independence? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7313586.stm
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Gane
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2008, 11:14:47 AM » |
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Well I hope they succeed. Smaller governments are safer governments. Let's hope the Kosovo trend continues.
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Viv.
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« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2008, 01:13:11 PM » |
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It is difficult to predict how it will go. The people are pretty split about it, but support has grown for independence. The political situation is not that easy to describe, I will try. The UK is still governed jointly from London in all major policy issues, for example defence matters, foreign policy etc are voted on in Parliament by representatives from all 4 countries which make up the UK (Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Wales). But Scotland has a separate devolved Parliament for local issues, like education and health...it is not federal but could be likened to federalism. Many Scots have lacked confidence in Scottish politicians' ability to self-govern and were nervous of economic problems, these have been factors in remaining part of the UK. However, the Scottish Parliament has dissolved much of this concern as it has been pretty successful since commencement in 1999. Also, the UK has been governed by Scots for the past 10 years or so...Tony Blair is a Scot, the current Prime Minister is Gordon Brown, another Scot and many Scots are in power in other highest-level areas of government. In the last Scottish elections, the leader of the Scottish Nationalist Party was voted into power as First Minister of the Scottish Parliament (our equivalent to Prime Minister). Many people are suspected to have voted for him only in order to protest against the Labour Party, as they are responsible for leading us into the Iraq war. Nevertheless, he is in power and is an experienced and capable politician with an astute team to support him. He is dynamic and has taken every opportunity to push the independence agenda by forcing controversial reform after reform through Parliament in Scotland's favour. For example, he is to abolish University fees over the next two years and also any charges for prescribed medicines. This costs the taxpayer. And it is paid from communal taxation which all UK countries contribute to. Therefore, England is paying for improvements which are only effective in Scotland. The English taxpayer is becoming more and more angry at subsidising this, as their own politicians are securing no such improvements for them, so support for separation of the UK union is growing rapidly south of the border as well as in Scotland. A last issue causing English support for the split is that the Parliament in London, which is voted on by the representatives of all four UK countries, governs England. England has no separate government for English only issues, as Scotland has for Scottish local issues. This means Scots, Irish and Welsh have input regarding how England is governed, but England has no input into Scottish matters. IMO the split is inevitable and I support it. The UK union was almost forced on Scotland as a method of self-defence. It was beneficial to Scotland for several hundred years but is no longer working for us. Emotional arguments are often brought to bear regarding the UK union, but to me it is nothing but an economic and military agreement which has outlived its usefulness and should be replaced by something like trade agreements with the EU or perhaps EU membership.
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DIEGO
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2008, 05:26:58 AM » |
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Viv, thanks for your opinion. One more question: do you know anything related to Wales? Are they close to Scotland in this thing?
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Viv.
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« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2008, 06:16:14 AM » |
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Viv, thanks for your opinion. One more question: do you know anything related to Wales? Are they close to Scotland in this thing?
I believe they have the Welsh Assembly government, carrying lesser powers than the devolved Scottish parliament. I know they have a political party pushing for independence. But I do not know the general Welsh position on this.
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PinkTickingClocks
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Be always at war with your vices.
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2008, 07:41:43 PM » |
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Take down the Union Jack, it clashes with the sunset And put it in the attic with the emperors old clothes When did it fall apart? Sometime in the 80s When the Great and the Good gave way to the greedy and the mean Britain isn't cool you know, its really not that great It's not a proper country, it doesn't even have a patron saint It's just an economic union that's passed its sell-by date
Take down the Union Jack, it clashes with the sunset And ask our Scottish neighbours if independence looks any good 'Cos they just might understand how to take an abstract notion Of personal identity and turn it into nationhood Is this the 19th century that I'm watching on tv? The dear old Queen of England handing out those MBEs Member of the British Empire - that doesn't sound too good to me
Gilbert and George are taking the piss aren't they? Gilbert and George are taking the piss. What could be more British than here's a picture of my bum? Gilbert and George are taking the piss
Take down the Union Jack, it clashes with the sunset And pile all those history books, but don't throw them away They just might have some clues about what it really means To be an Anglo hyphen Saxon in England.co.uk
bbillllyyyyy bragggggg....
(disclaimer: I didn't read the post, but i caught a glimpse of a bit on Scottish independence? anyway catchy song..)
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If only the transcendent moments were as timeless as a broken clock.
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Comrade Joe
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2008, 09:58:38 PM » |
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Most Scottish people do not want independance. This is just fact. The nationalists dot have nearly a majority of support. The problem the world has is too many countries, not too few.
Nationalism and seperation is driven by individuals who look for scapegoats, by people who view the English as somehow other and foreign. But they are not, they are our comrades, brothers and sisters. It is the cause of the small minded who think their troubles would somehow go away if "we" were independant. But they wouldnt they would still remain, infact we would have even more new problems. The problem of being a small insignificant voice on the world stage. As part of Britain we have a potentially powerful voice. We would have the problem that we are integrated with Britain, would we just close of the motorway and all roads into England ? Would people need a passport just to cross the border to get to work in the morning ? What would happen to the military - what would happen when many of them say they want no part of a scottish military, they want to stay in the British army. What would happen if Britain wanted to keep their bases in Scotland including their nuclear arsenal ? I mean is Scotland seriously going to force them out, that is just ridiculous. Nationalist want independance for independance sake, they live in a fantasy land.
And the nationalists plan for "independance" involve keeping the queen as head of state and keeping the pound. That doesnt sound like independance to me. Having the currency controlled by the bank of england means no economic independance and without economic independance, there can be no independance. The nationalists really need to re-think their plans, they dont stand up to scrutiny.
There is 3 reasons they scraped a "victory" at the election. They won by one seat, and that was only enough to form a minority government. 1) We have a voting system that means you can win by being most peoples second pick, and the party who wins most constituencies (as Labour did) comes second. 2) They won because Labour ceased to be Labour, they are too associated with the Blair/Brown spin machine and havent challenged the capitalist thatcherite agenda continued by New Labour in the UK. 3) The Socialists self destructed and the nationalists stole their votes on the basis that no self respecting socialist would vote for the now privatising war monger Labour party.
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« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 10:02:05 PM by Comrade Joe »
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Comrade Joe
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« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2008, 02:44:57 PM » |
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Thank you for the link diego, and for taking an interest. What i will point out is that the opinion polls vary from poll to poll. And if i may say that te link is from 18 months ago. Since then we have had an election, and the election results do not reflect that poll. The independence parties did not score anywhere near that level of support. People are always more likely to support independance in a poll, but when push comes to the shove, they are not supportive at the ballot box. Even the more recent polls show that nationalist support is diminishing. The polls seem to now be in agreement that, Scotland should have more devolved power on local issues but within a UK, federal like framework. I know wiki is not the greatest source, but this little section sums up quite nicely the public feeling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Public_opinion
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DIEGO
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« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2008, 03:57:30 AM » |
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I've found the wikipedia link very interesting. Thanks for that. Actually I didn't know that results could vary from poll to poll in that manner. I also admit that I'm quite conditioned by the situation of the Basque Country where independence support is quite stable.
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Comrade Joe
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« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2008, 08:24:43 AM » |
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I've found the wikipedia link very interesting. Thanks for that. Actually I didn't know that results could vary from poll to poll in that manner. I also admit that I'm quite conditioned by the situation of the Basque Country where independence support is quite stable.
I think it deped on who conducts the poll and what their agenda is. But more importantly we seem to be a reactionary society. If government in Londo are doing well people are supportive of them, when things are going bad and there is a scandal over something then support for thew nationalist will surge. The people seem to be less clear cut in their beliefs than in many parts of the world, instead they follow the agenda of the latest headline. That is how i see it at least. So you are from the Basque country then ? Are you pro independance or against ? What do you think of ETA ? Sorry for the digression, but i find this more interesting than independance in my own country.
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Biker Dude
A TRUE Liberal!
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Live to Ride, Ride to Live
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« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2008, 03:44:12 PM » |
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So you are from the Basque country then ? Are you pro independance or against ? What do you think of ETA ? Sorry for the digression, but i find this more interesting than independance in my own country.
Sounds like an attempt to derail the thread.
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Who will watch the watchers?A vote for McCain is a traitorous vote for the destruction of our way of life as we know it.
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Comrade Joe
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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2008, 03:51:34 PM » |
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So you are from the Basque country then ? Are you pro independance or against ? What do you think of ETA ? Sorry for the digression, but i find this more interesting than independance in my own country.
Sounds like an attempt to derail the thread. No, i was responding to Diego's post in which he mentioned Basque independance. I didn't raise the issue, merely showing an interest.
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DIEGO
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« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2008, 03:01:30 AM » |
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So you are from the Basque country then ? Are you pro independance or against ? What do you think of ETA ? Sorry for the digression, but i find this more interesting than independance in my own country.
Sounds like an attempt to derail the thread. No, i was responding to Diego's post in which he mentioned Basque independance. I didn't raise the issue, merely showing an interest. I think that Basque Country independence is not the purpose of this post, anyway, I'm going to make a little comment on that.
I'm Spanish but not from the Basque Country. However, Basque Country's conflict is a well known issue for all the Spanish people. I'm not for independence of the Basque Country but I consider myself as a true democrat and I will support people's decisions. How could be carry out a referendum for independence? This would be a very difficult issue... However, in my opinion there's no possibility for independence while there is violence on the streets.
I hope to answer you in the way that you would wanted.
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