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yilmaz101
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« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2008, 02:39:41 AM » |
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It seems in this case the parents were just plain stupid, religious or not. I see nothing wrong with being religious. Stronger morals, as a result of faith in a deity, or any other reason is actually something the society should enforce, not seek out to destroy.
Now from my understanding there are some wacky sects in all religions, hey some people who claim to have the same faith as I do see nothing wrong in smoking dope and then strapping bombs on themselves but does that mean "my religion" is bad?
I'm pretty sure that there are neglient and stupid parents who are not religious or even atheists, does that make secularism or atheism bad in itself.
You can't make a catagoric denial of religion based on the examples of a moron or two. That denial opens the door to categoric denial of secularism based on bad examples of secular individuals. Religion is a good thing for most people who tend to believe in one. I'm content with my belief system and I really don't appreciate being categorized along with the nut jobs most people try to give exapmles as to how religion is a bad thing.
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Leo
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« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2008, 10:45:10 PM » |
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It seems in this case the parents were just plain stupid, religious or not. I see nothing wrong with being religious. Stronger morals, as a result of faith in a deity, or any other reason is actually something the society should enforce, not seek out to destroy.
Now from my understanding there are some wacky sects in all religions, hey some people who claim to have the same faith as I do see nothing wrong in smoking dope and then strapping bombs on themselves but does that mean "my religion" is bad?
I'm pretty sure that there are neglient and stupid parents who are not religious or even atheists, does that make secularism or atheism bad in itself.
You can't make a catagoric denial of religion based on the examples of a moron or two. That denial opens the door to categoric denial of secularism based on bad examples of secular individuals. Religion is a good thing for most people who tend to believe in one. I'm content with my belief system and I really don't appreciate being categorized along with the nut jobs most people try to give exapmles as to how religion is a bad thing.
With respect Yilmaz101, I do not think anyone here is categorising religion in general as a bad thing. What have been quoted are instances of people causing the death of their children by refusing them medical attention. That such refusal is upon the grounds of religious belief, is irrelevant to the fact that they have been the clear, if indirect, cause of the child's death. This, in my view, is a serious crime, and the law should be amended if there are no sanctions against such an act. Everyone is entitled to many freedoms, including that of free speech and religious belief. Where those entitlements cease is the point at which they affect other people, and in particular, powerless elements in society, such as children. One of the many factors contributing to situations such as this is not only extreme and bizarre interpretation of a book of myth and fable, but the tendency amongst fundamentalist religions to consider children as property, to be treated as their parents see fit. There is an old Middle Eastern (I think) saying - "Your children come through you, not from you ..." and, as far as I am concerned, you have great responsibility as far as their welfare is concerned, but no rights over them. They did not ask to be born. |
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Callum
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2008, 05:41:21 AM » |
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"Here's concrete proof that strong religious faith leads to child abuse".
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but all it shows is that some people mistreat their children. It does not show any 'proof' of any general effect of strong religious belief : at best it shows that when some people mistreat their children they rationalise by citing religious principles.
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IamMe
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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2008, 01:31:10 PM » |
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"Here's concrete proof that strong religious faith leads to child abuse".
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but all it shows is that some people mistreat their children. It does not show any 'proof' of any general effect of strong religious belief : at best it shows that when some people mistreat their children they rationalise by citing religious principles.
No. Their child's death followed directly from their belief that if they prayed hard enough, god would save their child. I fail to see what they have done wrong, from the point of view of a person within the mythology: it is almost an insult to God to trust medicine instead of his divine caprices. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Leo
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2008, 01:45:54 PM » |
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"Here's concrete proof that strong religious faith leads to child abuse".
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but all it shows is that some people mistreat their children. It does not show any 'proof' of any general effect of strong religious belief : at best it shows that when some people mistreat their children they rationalise by citing religious principles.
No. Their child's death followed directly from their belief that if they prayed hard enough, god would save their child. I fail to see what they have done wrong, from the point of view of a person within the mythology: it is almost an insult to God to trust medicine instead of his divine caprices. With all due respect to the believers of that particular mythology, I can see what they have done wrong - a very grave wrongdoing indeed. They have contributed by willful neglect to the death of a child within their care. Such culpability may not be excused on the basis of any particular mythology. What if a particular cult believed in the human sacrifice of their children upon altars of stone? Would you still maintain that 'they had done no wrong, from the point of view of a person within that mythology'? Are there not basic moral standards that supersede cultish beliefs? 'Thou shalt not kill' is not limited to religious admonition. It is a basic secular tenet of every society. |
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IamMe
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« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2008, 02:08:41 PM » |
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"Here's concrete proof that strong religious faith leads to child abuse".
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but all it shows is that some people mistreat their children. It does not show any 'proof' of any general effect of strong religious belief : at best it shows that when some people mistreat their children they rationalise by citing religious principles.
No. Their child's death followed directly from their belief that if they prayed hard enough, god would save their child. I fail to see what they have done wrong, from the point of view of a person within the mythology: it is almost an insult to God to trust medicine instead of his divine caprices. With all due respect to the believers of that particular mythology, I can see what they have done wrong - a very grave wrongdoing indeed. They have contributed by willful neglect to the death of a child within their care. Such culpability may not be excused on the basis of any particular mythology. What if a particular cult believed in the human sacrifice of their children upon altars of stone? Would you still maintain that 'they had done no wrong, from the point of view of a person within that mythology'? Are there not basic moral standards that supersede cultish beliefs? 'Thou shalt not kill' is not limited to religious admonition. It is a basic secular tenet of every society. I agree with you. My point is that, assuming their beliefs are true and without the benefit of hindsight, they didn't do anything wrong: the only sense in which they did anything wrong was that there beliefs were wrong (and dangerous). |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Leo
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« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2008, 03:37:57 PM » |
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"Here's concrete proof that strong religious faith leads to child abuse".
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but all it shows is that some people mistreat their children. It does not show any 'proof' of any general effect of strong religious belief : at best it shows that when some people mistreat their children they rationalise by citing religious principles.
No. Their child's death followed directly from their belief that if they prayed hard enough, god would save their child. I fail to see what they have done wrong, from the point of view of a person within the mythology: it is almost an insult to God to trust medicine instead of his divine caprices. With all due respect to the believers of that particular mythology, I can see what they have done wrong - a very grave wrongdoing indeed. They have contributed by willful neglect to the death of a child within their care. Such culpability may not be excused on the basis of any particular mythology. What if a particular cult believed in the human sacrifice of their children upon altars of stone? Would you still maintain that 'they had done no wrong, from the point of view of a person within that mythology'? Are there not basic moral standards that supersede cultish beliefs? 'Thou shalt not kill' is not limited to religious admonition. It is a basic secular tenet of every society. I agree with you. My point is that, assuming their beliefs are true and without the benefit of hindsight, they didn't do anything wrong: the only sense in which they did anything wrong was that there beliefs were wrong (and dangerous). Yes, I understand and agree that, from the limited perspective of their particular beliefs, they acted within the parameters of those beliefs. I just wanted to point out that a system of beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, does not justify doing harm to any others, let alone those under your care. It is to that extent, and that extent only, that religious beliefs may be dangerous. The majority of the congregation (usually consisting of three old ladies and a stray dog) at any Church of England chapel would not dream of harming their loved ones on the basis of some religious admonition. |
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Factinista
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« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2008, 09:31:59 AM » |
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It seems in this case the parents were just plain stupid, religious or not. I see nothing wrong with being religious. Stronger morals, as a result of faith in a deity, or any other reason is actually something the society should enforce, not seek out to destroy.
Now from my understanding there are some wacky sects in all religions, hey some people who claim to have the same faith as I do see nothing wrong in smoking dope and then strapping bombs on themselves but does that mean "my religion" is bad?
I'm pretty sure that there are neglient and stupid parents who are not religious or even atheists, does that make secularism or atheism bad in itself.
You can't make a catagoric denial of religion based on the examples of a moron or two. That denial opens the door to categoric denial of secularism based on bad examples of secular individuals. Religion is a good thing for most people who tend to believe in one. I'm content with my belief system and I really don't appreciate being categorized along with the nut jobs most people try to give exapmles as to how religion is a bad thing.
With respect Yilmaz101, I do not think anyone here is categorising religion in general as a bad thing. What have been quoted are instances of people causing the death of their children by refusing them medical attention. That such refusal is upon the grounds of religious belief, is irrelevant to the fact that they have been the clear, if indirect, cause of the child's death. This, in my view, is a serious crime, and the law should be amended if there are no sanctions against such an act. Everyone is entitled to many freedoms, including that of free speech and religious belief. Where those entitlements cease is the point at which they affect other people, and in particular, powerless elements in society, such as children. One of the many factors contributing to situations such as this is not only extreme and bizarre interpretation of a book of myth and fable, but the tendency amongst fundamentalist religions to consider children as property, to be treated as their parents see fit. There is an old Middle Eastern (I think) saying - "Your children come through you, not from you ..." and, as far as I am concerned, you have great responsibility as far as their welfare is concerned, but no rights over them. They did not ask to be born. I completely agree, well said! |
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IamMe
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« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2008, 01:19:29 PM » |
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"Here's concrete proof that strong religious faith leads to child abuse".
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but all it shows is that some people mistreat their children. It does not show any 'proof' of any general effect of strong religious belief : at best it shows that when some people mistreat their children they rationalise by citing religious principles.
No. Their child's death followed directly from their belief that if they prayed hard enough, god would save their child. I fail to see what they have done wrong, from the point of view of a person within the mythology: it is almost an insult to God to trust medicine instead of his divine caprices. With all due respect to the believers of that particular mythology, I can see what they have done wrong - a very grave wrongdoing indeed. They have contributed by willful neglect to the death of a child within their care. Such culpability may not be excused on the basis of any particular mythology. What if a particular cult believed in the human sacrifice of their children upon altars of stone? Would you still maintain that 'they had done no wrong, from the point of view of a person within that mythology'? Are there not basic moral standards that supersede cultish beliefs? 'Thou shalt not kill' is not limited to religious admonition. It is a basic secular tenet of every society. I agree with you. My point is that, assuming their beliefs are true and without the benefit of hindsight, they didn't do anything wrong: the only sense in which they did anything wrong was that there beliefs were wrong (and dangerous). Yes, I understand and agree that, from the limited perspective of their particular beliefs, they acted within the parameters of those beliefs. I just wanted to point out that a system of beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, does not justify doing harm to any others, let alone those under your care. It is to that extent, and that extent only, that religious beliefs may be dangerous. The majority of the congregation (usually consisting of three old ladies and a stray dog) at any Church of England chapel would not dream of harming their loved ones on the basis of some religious admonition. I wonder why it is that most religious people don't put more trust in their God. Perhaps they realise that the whole thing is a bit silly. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2008, 03:32:50 PM » |
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Whether they realize it or not they didn't put their faith in God, they put their faith into a cult leader who told them what God wants (as if he would know - he doesn't).
999 times out of 1000 that's were the trouble begins.
Ahk
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Patton
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« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2008, 04:27:35 AM » |
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Many beliefs damage children that can lead to an early death.....intresting that only religious ones are discussed by the non-religious.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2008, 05:36:08 AM » |
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That's very true Patton but I feel compelled to point out that a lot of people (from what I gather from reading the story) are going to rally around this couple and tell them they did the right thing and not to worry because little Sally or Susan will be waiting for them up in heaven.
On the other hand if they simply killed their child by neglecting them because of serious drug addiction, well they'd be crucified wouldn't they?
Im sensitive to the bombastic title of the thread and don't agree with it, but even so, a lot of people (within their religious community) are going to support what they did. They won't be held up as an example of wrong but rather of virtue.
Ahk
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« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 05:38:21 AM by Ahkenaten »
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IamMe
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« Reply #27 on: April 03, 2008, 12:59:52 PM » |
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Many beliefs damage children that can lead to an early death.....intresting that only religious ones are discussed by the non-religious.
Very interesting: why do I talk about religion on the Philosophy & Religion forum? It must be some evil atheist conspiracy! |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Patton
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2008, 04:23:13 AM » |
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..........a lot of people (within their religious community) are going to support what they did. They won't be held up as an example of wrong but rather of virtue. All I was pointing out is the same is true within other "groups"....the "group" will always most likely "fall in line" for support. Many beliefs damage children that can lead to an early death.....intresting that only religious ones are discussed by the non-religious.
Very interesting: why do I talk about religion on the Philosophy & Religion forum? It must be some evil atheist conspiracy! No, I just find the depth for which you look at alternative "beliefs" for comparison to be shallow. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Leo
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« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2008, 08:48:52 AM » |
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Many beliefs damage children that can lead to an early death.....intresting that only religious ones are discussed by the non-religious.
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."  This was a documented example which was brought to our attention, and so the board is discussing it. And I believe it is a presumption on your part to categorise those who are discussing this as non-religious. I am indeed non-religious, but I have discussed this with contemporaries who are deeply religious, and who nonetheless feel that this is a crime worthy of a life sentence. And perhaps you would be so kinds as to acquaint us with the common non-religious beliefs which result in children being condemned to a certain death. There is nothing in this ignorant, cruel and selfish act which may be reasonably taken as an indictment of the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of sane religious people. |
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