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IamMe
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« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2008, 12:56:58 PM » |
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There is nothing in this ignorant, cruel and selfish act which may be reasonably taken as an indictment of the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of sane religious people.
Did the people you talked to explain what part of their religious beliefs actually makes the act wrong? |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Leo
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2008, 07:49:12 AM » |
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There is nothing in this ignorant, cruel and selfish act which may be reasonably taken as an indictment of the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of sane religious people.
Did the people you talked to explain what part of their religious beliefs actually makes the act wrong? They didn't need to. The adjectives 'ignorant, cruel and selfish' came from the deeply religious mother of a school friend. I happen not to share her religious beliefs, but I respect her right to them and her common sense. I would not respect her as much if she (a) believed in such extremism, and (b) imposed that extremism upon her children. But as I pointed out earlier, whether such beliefs are right or wrong in the religious sense is not relevant. The actions of those parents must be judged in the legal and humanistic sense. |
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IamMe
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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2008, 01:34:19 PM » |
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There is nothing in this ignorant, cruel and selfish act which may be reasonably taken as an indictment of the sincere beliefs of the vast majority of sane religious people.
Did the people you talked to explain what part of their religious beliefs actually makes the act wrong? They didn't need to. The adjectives 'ignorant, cruel and selfish' came from the deeply religious mother of a school friend. I happen not to share her religious beliefs, but I respect her right to them and her common sense. I would not respect her as much if she (a) believed in such extremism, and (b) imposed that extremism upon her children. But as I pointed out earlier, whether such beliefs are right or wrong in the religious sense is not relevant. The actions of those parents must be judged in the legal and humanistic sense. It is relevant to the question of whether religion is a force for good or a force for evil in this world. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Patton
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« Reply #33 on: April 09, 2008, 08:04:01 AM » |
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Like MANY beliefs.....it is a matter of individual interpretation that determines whether it "is a force for good or a force for evil in this world."
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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IamMe
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« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2008, 12:59:17 PM » |
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Like MANY beliefs.....it is a matter of individual interpretation that determines whether it "is a force for good or a force for evil in this world."
Right, so in what sense (in your opinion) did these parents misinterpret the mainstream Christian beliefs that a) God does miracles and b) that prayer works? |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Patton
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« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2008, 05:25:41 AM » |
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Like MANY beliefs.....it is a matter of individual interpretation that determines whether it "is a force for good or a force for evil in this world."
Right, so in what sense (in your opinion) did these parents misinterpret the mainstream Christian beliefs that a) God does miracles and b) that prayer works? When under the influence of a fringe, extremist "cult of personality".....misinterpretation of "mainstream" beliefs is bound to happen....."mainstream" Christians believe in miracles and that prayer works....but do not deny "mainstream" modern medicine either. Not seeking treatment for illness is like driving with no safety belt or riding a motorcycle with no helmet..... |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2008, 08:33:53 AM » |
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Like MANY beliefs.....it is a matter of individual interpretation that determines whether it "is a force for good or a force for evil in this world."
Right, so in what sense (in your opinion) did these parents misinterpret the mainstream Christian beliefs that a) God does miracles and b) that prayer works? Why were they praying for a miracle? Were they testing God or would the HMO not cover their bill? Sometimes people pray for things because they want to be dazzled. If this is the case, their desire for a divine healing was quite selfish and I agree they should be punished. However, if their belief in God happens to be true, then there is ultimately no harm to the child (i.e. heaven) despite the parent's trangression. Ironically, if there is no God, there is no harm at all. That leads me to a tangent; Independent of a God, what moral obligation do parents have to their children? How do you defend such an obligation? IOW why does it matter? You can vilify and condemn friend, but why do you care? |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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IamMe
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2008, 12:08:52 PM » |
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Like MANY beliefs.....it is a matter of individual interpretation that determines whether it "is a force for good or a force for evil in this world."
Right, so in what sense (in your opinion) did these parents misinterpret the mainstream Christian beliefs that a) God does miracles and b) that prayer works? Why were they praying for a miracle? Were they testing God or would the HMO not cover their bill? Sometimes people pray for things because they want to be dazzled. If this is the case, their desire for a divine healing was quite selfish and I agree they should be punished. Perhaps they just really believed all that bullshit and thought it would be an insult to god to use medicine (you know, questioning god's ability to heal people). I don't know, I can't understand the minds of the delusional/faithful. However, if their belief in God happens to be true, then there is ultimately no harm to the child (i.e. heaven) despite the parent's trangression. What so murder is no big deal? Ironically, if there is no God, there is no harm at all.
I couldn't disagree more: this child is dead an will not come back - she has ceased to exist, to perceive. There is no greater harm. That leads me to a tangent; Independent of a God, what moral obligation do parents have to their children? How do you defend such an obligation? IOW why does it matter? You can vilify and condemn friend, but why do you care?
I'm going to ignore this rather childish idea that unless there is an authority to make me feel compassion then I wont feel it. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Patton
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2008, 01:26:49 PM » |
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Perhaps they just really believed all that bullshit and thought it would be an insult to god to use medicine (you know, questioning god's ability to heal people). I don't know, I can't understand the minds of the delusional/faithful. Do you want to begin a path similar to D9? From my "Civility" post at the top of the page: If you cannot make your point without demeaning anothers beliefs, then I suggest ignoring the post...
If you find fault or disagree with an individual simply state why you disagree or demonstrate why you disagree with a civil, mature and cogent reply.For the record. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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IamMe
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2008, 01:38:59 PM » |
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Perhaps they just really believed all that bullshit and thought it would be an insult to god to use medicine (you know, questioning god's ability to heal people). I don't know, I can't understand the minds of the delusional/faithful. Do you want to begin a path similar to D9? From my "Civility" post at the top of the page: If you cannot make your point without demeaning anothers beliefs, then I suggest ignoring the post...
If you find fault or disagree with an individual simply state why you disagree or demonstrate why you disagree with a civil, mature and cogent reply.For the record. Patton, be even handed: That leads me to a tangent; Independent of a God, what moral obligation do parents have to their children? How do you defend such an obligation? IOW why does it matter? You can vilify and condemn friend, but why do you care?
This idea that no atheist can be moral or compassionate is much more offensive than calling religion bullshit. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Patton
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2008, 01:43:46 PM » |
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He was asking questions and did not use profanity....demonstrate where he is wrong without profanity or calling those of faith delusional which is construed as a personal attack on those of faith.
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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IamMe
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2008, 01:52:44 PM » |
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He was asking questions and did not use profanity....demonstrate where he is wrong without profanity or calling those of faith delusional which is construed as a personal attack on those of faith.
I don't need to demonstrate that he is wrong: the actions of countless atheists demonstrate that he is wrong. Regardless, point taken about language, will not happen again. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Patton
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Hero Member
Karma: +112/-146
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2008, 02:14:34 PM » |
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Regardless, point taken about language, will not happen again.
Much appreciated.....you are very bright and are able to express your point effectively without it, and all it does is take away from the point you want to make. |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Warr_E_Er
Newbie
Karma: +4/-0
Posts: 49
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2008, 06:38:08 PM » |
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Please forgive me Iamme, I was not trying to offend you. However, if their belief in God happens to be true, then there is ultimately no harm to the child (i.e. heaven) despite the parent's trangression. What so murder is no big deal? Ironically, if there is no God, there is no harm at all.
I couldn't disagree more: this child is dead an will not come back - she has ceased to exist, to perceive. There is no greater harm. We both believe in the sanctity of life. But I will play devils advocate for a minute. Why is this child’s life valuable? Simply because we say so? I hope there is a greater reason than that… I don't need to demonstrate that he is wrong: the actions of countless atheists demonstrate that he is wrong. How could I suggest your lack of morality when you recognize and abhorrer the immorality of this poor girls parents? I admire your morals and agree with you about this girls parents. Similarly, I know many atheists with exceptional morals by my standard of morals. If anything, your morality IMHO is a sign of God within you. That leads me to a tangent; Independent of a God, what moral obligation do parents have to their children? How do you defend such an obligation? IOW why does it matter? You can vilify and condemn friend, but why do you care?
I'm going to ignore this rather childish idea that unless there is an authority to make me feel compassion then I wont feel it. I struggle to understand WHY you believe they were immoral. I am simply asking what place morality has in the absence of God. If we are just shadows and dust, why does it matter? I see your commendable morality as inconsistent with a solely material world view. I hope this clarifies my questions. I will create a new thread for this topic because I have already detracted enough from this thread. |
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I think, therefore I am loved
“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”
-Minnesota Crime Commission
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Leo
Full Member
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Posts: 106
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2008, 07:33:39 PM » |
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We both believe in the sanctity of life. But I will play devils advocate for a minute. Why is this child’s life valuable? Simply because we say so? I hope there is a greater reason than that…
I appreciate that you are playing the Devil's Advocate, but might I suggest that life is such a capricious and unlikely occurence in the universe, that ipso facto it is valuable. Within my (albeit subjective) morality, there is nothing - no transgression, no sin, and no circumstance which justifies the taking of human life. There does not have to be a reason, greater or lesser. It is axiomatic.  So the question here is not whether the parents have committed a crime, but why they did it, and whether such criminal acts may be justified by personal beliefs. |
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