Toaster
Hero Member
   
Karma: +53/-129
Posts: 741
Burnin' for you
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« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2008, 05:23:03 AM » |
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More late breaking BS from morons desperate to justify the largest foreign policy debacle in history, because all the orignal reasons have been proven to be worthless, or outright falsehoods.
Sorry, what has been verified is that Saddam DID not have much to do with world terrorism - what is proven (a word that you seem clueless about) is that he paid death benefits to the families of OTHER country's suicide bombers.
The truth is that Iraq, one of the most secular arab nations, was the least invovled in terrorism in the region, other than perhaps Jordan.
Syria is a more valid target, Libya, Lebannon and if you really want a terror breding ground, look no further than the people Bush holds hands and kisses.
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DISCUSSION, n. A method of confirming others in their errors.
The Devil\\'s Dictionary
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Irwin
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« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2008, 11:53:03 AM » |
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And, no, they were privy to the intelligence the White House packaged for them thru the Office of Special Plans, which was formed specifically to keep any dissenting voices out of the intel reports. Was Bush sent the same packaged information as that sent to Congress? He hired the packaged it. So the lies are his responsibility.
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neue regel
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« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2008, 12:03:38 PM » |
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He hired the packaged it. So the lies are his responsibility. That's not what I asked. Was he delivered the same packaged intel that Congress received?
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Irwin
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« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2008, 12:21:19 PM » |
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He hired the packaged it. So the lies are his responsibility. That's not what I asked. Was he delivered the same packaged intel that Congress received? Is this some sort of lawyer's argument to excuse Bush because his own liars lied to him? We know Congress' info came from the Office of Special Plans, headed by Dick Cheney. Bush was the boss. You think he wasn't involved in the process?
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neue regel
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« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2008, 12:35:40 PM » |
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Is this some sort of lawyer's argument to excuse Bush because his own liars lied to him?
We know Congress' info came from the Office of Special Plans, headed by Dick Cheney. Bush was the boss. You think he wasn't involved in the process? It's a simple question, really. It is being maintained that Bush lied. For that to be true, he had to intentionally mislead with intent to deceive. Anything short of that doesn't meet the criteria for a 'lie.' For me, the reason I don't believe Bush 'lied' is because there is an absolute wealth of information out there about the attitudes of this country and its leaders toward Iraq...years BEFORE Bush (or his special office) showed up.
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Irwin
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« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2008, 12:46:47 PM » |
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Is this some sort of lawyer's argument to excuse Bush because his own liars lied to him?
We know Congress' info came from the Office of Special Plans, headed by Dick Cheney. Bush was the boss. You think he wasn't involved in the process? It's a simple question, really. It is being maintained that Bush lied. For that to be true, he had to intentionally mislead with intent to deceive. Anything short of that doesn't meet the criteria for a 'lie.' For me, the reason I don't believe Bush 'lied' is because there is an absolute wealth of information out there about the attitudes of this country and its leaders toward Iraq...years BEFORE Bush (or his special office) showed up. Yes, the majority of attitudes was that Saddam was no threat and an invasion would be a stupid disaster. We hear PUBLIC statements from various politicians like Clinton that there was a threat, but none of them were stupid enough to advocate it was a threat that required an invasion. We know that Bush repeatedly made claims known to be untrue, like connections to Al Qaeda. Those are lies. I'm sorry you feel so partisan that you feel you have to defend such a person.
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neue regel
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« Reply #51 on: April 21, 2008, 01:00:54 PM » |
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Yes, the majority of attitudes was that Saddam was no threat There are quite a few quotes that disagree with you. We know that Bush repeatedly made claims known to be untrue, like connections to Al Qaeda. I would be interest to see your evidence supporting this claim. I'm sorry you feel so partisan that you feel you have to defend such a person. It feels like you want me to just accept what you are saying at face value and move on.
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Gane
Jr. Member

Karma: +4/-0
Posts: 55
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« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2008, 04:09:24 PM » |
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Speaking of trusting the Pentagon sources, there is a great documentary on PBS that shows the huge rifts between CIA and Pentagon over what should be done in Iraq and how the war in Afghanistan should be fought. Cheney sided with Rumsfeld and the Pentagon because their intel gave the impression that Iraq was a threat, while CIA only wanted to focus on Afghanistan because they had no intel showing Iraq to be a threat to the US.
I've only seen the documentary on around 2 or 3 in the morning EST so I'm not sure the name of it, but it is interesting and seemed fairly unbiased.
You don't say! Differences between the elected officials in Government, the Pentagon and the CIA. Astonishing!! Of course you realize this isn't the first time that's ever happened. Now, about Saddam's ties to known al-Qaeda terrorist organizations ....... any comments about that? Well, I have no clue who is telling the truth, but... the Pentagon was controlled by Rumsfeld who has worked with Cheney for over 30 years. Cheney had already had a bias against CIA from before he became the Vice-President and favored the advice of Rumsfeld. Bush, well he is just a puppet, someone who does as he's told, and everyone knows that Cheney has a heavy hand in the white house. So I think that the CIA reports were ignored, and we went into Iraq based on faulty Pentagon sources. The Pentagons main source Ahmed Chalabi is anything but reputable and is said to only look to further his own agenda. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/not_in_website/syndication/monitoring/media_reports/2291649.stmThis piece talks about how there was talk that he might be Hussein's successor. He was the one of the Pentagon's main sources of intelligence and he has been shown to be completely corrupt, of course he would say anything to get the US to get rid of Saddam. Notwithstanding these concerns, Hersh reported that "INC supporters in and around the Administration, including Paul Dundes Wolfowitz and Richard Perle, believe, like Chalabi, that any show of force would immediately trigger a revolt against Saddam within Iraq, and that it would quickly expand." In December 2002, Robert Dreyfuss reported that the administration of George W. Bush actually preferred INC-supplied analyses of Iraq over analyses provided by long-standing analysts within the CIA. "Even as it prepares for war against Iraq, the Pentagon is already engaged on a second front: its war against the Central Intelligence Agency.," he wrote. "The Pentagon is bringing relentless pressure to bear on the agency to produce intelligence reports more supportive of war with Iraq. ... Morale inside the U.S. national-security apparatus is said to be low, with career staffers feeling intimidated and pressured to justify the push for war."
Much of the pro-war faction's information came from the INC, even though "most Iraq hands with long experience in dealing with that country's tumultuous politics consider the INC's intelligence-gathering abilities to be nearly nil. ... The Pentagon's critics are appalled that intelligence provided by the INC might shape U.S. decisions about going to war against Baghdad. At the CIA and at the State Department, Ahmed Chalabi, the INC's leader, is viewed as the ineffectual head of a self-inflated and corrupt organization skilled at lobbying and public relations, but not much else."[13]
"The [INC's] intelligence isn't reliable at all," said Vincent Cannistraro, a former senior CIA official and counterterrorism expert. "Much of it is propaganda. Much of it is telling the Defense Department what they want to hear. And much of it is used to support Chalabi's own presidential ambitions. They make no distinction between intelligence and propaganda, using alleged informants and defectors who say what Chalabi wants them to say, [creating] cooked information that goes right into presidential and vice-presidential speeches." http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Iraqi_National_Congress It seems to me that the war was planned, was already decided on, and then the search for any intel from anyone, no matter how reliable, began.
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Irwin
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« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2008, 01:03:38 PM » |
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Yes, the majority of attitudes was that Saddam was no threat There are quite a few quotes that disagree with you. We know that Bush repeatedly made claims known to be untrue, like connections to Al Qaeda. I would be interest to see your evidence supporting this claim. I'm sorry you feel so partisan that you feel you have to defend such a person. It feels like you want me to just accept what you are saying at face value and move on. Yes, quotes fed to you in the MSM as the majority, and by politicians, who knew it wasn't politically safe to tell the truth publically about Saddam. Yet, around the world the consensus was that the US had gone insane because the claims were just ridiculous. George Bush Sr. Rejected invasion. Bill Clinton, approached by the neo-cons, rejected invasion. Your opinions are directly issued by the Republican party through FOX. You pretend to be just asking questions, but you elected Bush twice and until he started to look bad, were in the habit of defending everything he does. Now you want to split hairs over whether he was lying. Shameful... Bush's Al Qaeda/Saddam lie: "There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties." http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/09/20030917-7.htmlNo question? That is a lie.
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neue regel
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« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2008, 01:49:18 PM » |
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Yes, quotes fed to you in the MSM as the majority, and by politicians, who knew it wasn't politically safe to tell the truth publically about Saddam. These were quotes about Iraq from the late 90s...ie: pre- 9/11. Yet, around the world the consensus was that the US had gone insane because the claims were just ridiculous. Really? Seems like the UN still had sanctions on Iraq. Maybe I'm remembering that wrong. George Bush Sr. Rejected invasion.
Bill Clinton, approached by the neo-cons, rejected invasion. Indeed. Your opinions are directly issued by the Republican party through FOX. Alan Colmes (no right wing nut) poo-poos your claim that FOX is somehow a tool of the Republican party. You pretend to be just asking questions, but you elected Bush twice and until he started to look bad, were in the habit of defending everything he does. Now you want to split hairs over whether he was lying. This is a bit mangled. What are you saying? No question? That is a lie. Your contention is Saddam had zero dealings with AQ? Just so I'm clear...
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Patton
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +112/-147
Posts: 1,945
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« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2008, 03:13:56 PM » |
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Yes, the majority of attitudes was that Saddam was no threat....... Saddam was NO threat
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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freethinker
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« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2008, 05:50:16 PM » |
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Well wadaya know...It seem these two folks were going against the conventional wisdom at the time... In Cairo, on February 24 2001, Powell said: "He (Saddam Hussein) has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours." Powell even boasted that it was the US policy of "containment" that had effectively disarmed the Iraqi dictator - again the very opposite of what Blair said time and again. On May 15 2001, Powell went further and said that Saddam Hussein had not been able to "build his military back up or to develop weapons of mass destruction" for "the last 10 years". America, he said, had been successful in keeping him "in a box".
Two months later, Condoleezza Rice also described a weak, divided and militarily defenceless Iraq. "Saddam does not control the northern part of the country," she said. "We are able to keep his arms from him. His military forces have not been rebuilt."
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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Irwin
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« Reply #57 on: April 22, 2008, 06:01:09 PM » |
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Yes, quotes fed to you in the MSM as the majority, and by politicians, who knew it wasn't politically safe to tell the truth publically about Saddam. These were quotes about Iraq from the late 90s...ie: pre- 9/11. Yet, around the world the consensus was that the US had gone insane because the claims were just ridiculous. Really? Seems like the UN still had sanctions on Iraq. Maybe I'm remembering that wrong. George Bush Sr. Rejected invasion.
Bill Clinton, approached by the neo-cons, rejected invasion. Indeed. Your opinions are directly issued by the Republican party through FOX. Alan Colmes (no right wing nut) poo-poos your claim that FOX is somehow a tool of the Republican party. You pretend to be just asking questions, but you elected Bush twice and until he started to look bad, were in the habit of defending everything he does. Now you want to split hairs over whether he was lying. This is a bit mangled. What are you saying? No question? That is a lie. Your contention is Saddam had zero dealings with AQ? Just so I'm clear... Osama bin Laden hated Saddam. Period. Anyone familliar with the mideast knew that. Alan colmes? LOL! The only "liberal" on FOX? The token liberal. Yeah, he's going to challenge the only people who will pay his check. The very fact you think FOX is not conservative biased shows you bark thier party line. You want to lawyer Bush out of being a liar by asking, metaphorically, "It depends on what your definition of is is." He's a liar and an incompetant, who has screwed this country good. Good luck with all your BS.
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neue regel
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« Reply #58 on: April 22, 2008, 06:53:16 PM » |
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Osama bin Laden hated Saddam. Period. Anyone familliar with the mideast knew that.
Alan colmes? LOL! The only "liberal" on FOX? The token liberal. Yeah, he's going to challenge the only people who will pay his check. The very fact you think FOX is not conservative biased shows you bark thier party line.
You want to lawyer Bush out of being a liar by asking, metaphorically, "It depends on what your definition of is is."
He's a liar and an incompetant, who has screwed this country good. Good luck with all your BS. Not your best rebut.
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Irwin
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« Reply #59 on: April 22, 2008, 07:36:26 PM » |
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Osama bin Laden hated Saddam. Period. Anyone familliar with the mideast knew that.
Alan colmes? LOL! The only "liberal" on FOX? The token liberal. Yeah, he's going to challenge the only people who will pay his check. The very fact you think FOX is not conservative biased shows you bark thier party line.
You want to lawyer Bush out of being a liar by asking, metaphorically, "It depends on what your definition of is is."
He's a liar and an incompetant, who has screwed this country good. Good luck with all your BS. Not your best rebut. Ooooh! Devastating. Not. The UN has sanctions on a lot of countries we haven't invaded.
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