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Author Topic: Welcome back, 19th century  (Read 468 times)
DIEGO
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« on: June 11, 2008, 01:25:50 PM »

I guess that little attention has been given to this issue. Even more, we are leading our whole attention to the oil thing but in my opinion we would be making one big mistake if we admit this kind of change in working conditions. 

http://english.capital.gr/news.asp?id=520294


« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 01:33:33 PM by DIEGO » Logged
Fredledingue
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« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2008, 01:52:52 PM »

I don't realy understand this article:
First it states that the weekly limit will be 60h, then that it will be 65 (without explanantion), then that the dayly limit would be 13 hours thus a 6 days week would total 78 hours!
I can't sort out this non-sens, but ok.

The 60 hours week takes effect only after mutual agrement on a personal basis between the employer and the worker. Nobody is forced to work that long to make a living.
It only allows poeple who want to work more than 48h to earn more money. It can be 50h, 55h etc.

The big diference is that these extra hours won't have to be in black. It will safe, taxed and insured good working time under a legal contract with all the protection for the workers.
But the most important is that these extra hours won't be doubled-taxed as it's the case now.

For seasonal jobs it might be extremely useful.
I can imagine that it can be useful also for poeple who realy need money quickely and who are ready to work that much for a few weeks.

The on-call duty when the worker is living in the company facility is also an excellent idea for foreign workers who don't have a place where to live anyway. They will be very happy with such arrangement.

From the employer side, this flexibility will allow to legaly engage more workers than before and help reduce unemployement.

I applaud this proposition.
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DIEGO
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 09:58:54 AM »

I don't realy understand this article:
First it states that the weekly limit will be 60h, then that it will be 65 (without explanantion), then that the dayly limit would be 13 hours thus a 6 days week would total 78 hours!
I can't sort out this non-sens, but ok.

The 60 hours week takes effect only after mutual agrement on a personal basis between the employer and the worker. Nobody is forced to work that long to make a living.
It only allows poeple who want to work more than 48h to earn more money. It can be 50h, 55h etc.

The big diference is that these extra hours won't have to be in black. It will safe, taxed and insured good working time under a legal contract with all the protection for the workers.
But the most important is that these extra hours won't be doubled-taxed as it's the case now.

For seasonal jobs it might be extremely useful.
I can imagine that it can be useful also for poeple who realy need money quickely and who are ready to work that much for a few weeks.

The on-call duty when the worker is living in the company facility is also an excellent idea for foreign workers who don't have a place where to live anyway. They will be very happy with such arrangement.

From the employer side, this flexibility will allow to legaly engage more workers than before and help reduce unemployement.

I applaud this proposition.

Fredledingue, thanks for your answer.

Highlighted paragraph is the most important reason why I can't agree with the proposition. I mean, IMO, "honest" mutual agreements between employer and workers are simply not possible. I can't imagine a worker rejecting an increasing in working hours proposed by an employer. Even more when the employer has thousands of workers or thousands of people who need to have any work.   

However, I agree with you that we have a problem with tax system. But I think that solutions can't be included in a package like that. Even more, I guess that solutions for this problem have to be given by laws we already got ...but that would be another debate.   

And finally, I find difficult to understand that having people working more hours would help unemployment rates.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 10:09:44 AM by DIEGO » Logged
Fredledingue
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 01:42:22 PM »

Quote
I can't imagine a worker rejecting an increasing in working hours proposed by an employer.

Why? If the worker doesn't want to work more, he will just tell his boss "go to hell, if you are not happy we go on strike." and unions will be all too happy to take their red flags and picket untill the director apologize.
The worker works under written contract and if the contract states that he has to work 48h, he has no obligation to accept to work more under any circumstance and he/she can't be fired before the termination of the contract.

Why it would boost employement?
First by turning legal black workers (seasonal workers, foreign construction workers etc)
For the "Polish plumber" the 60h week is already a matter of fact.
I agree that this is not creating jobs, just legalizing. But as statistics and social security are concerned, jobs are being created.

Second by allowing flexibility, some jobs that were until now too expensive to be created because they would require two persons working 40 or 48 hours each, can now be offered.
I imagine some low duty work such as sitting on a chair reading a magazine until a monitor beeps, mowing lawn and gathering leafs etc
But more specificaly there could situations when one ned somebody 60 hours a week: Under the current legislation this has to be done through two 3/4 times of 30h which is more expensive and more complicated than one full time +1/4.

The only problem is if the hourly salary depreciate.
We can imagine that on the long term, long weeks become the norm and finaly the basic salary which coupled with inflation, is the same than a 48h week salary a few years before.

I don't think we will get there soon but I agree it's worth watching.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 01:57:08 PM by Fredledingue » Logged

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DIEGO
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« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 09:46:58 AM »

Quote
I can't imagine a worker rejecting an increasing in working hours proposed by an employer.

Why? If the worker doesn't want to work more, he will just tell his boss "go to hell, if you are not happy we go on strike." and unions will be all too happy to take their red flags and picket untill the director apologize.
The worker works under written contract and if the contract states that he has to work 48h, he has no obligation to accept to work more under any circumstance and he/she can't be fired before the termination of the contract.

Why it would boost employement?
First by turning legal black workers (seasonal workers, foreign construction workers etc)
For the "Polish plumber" the 60h week is already a matter of fact.
I agree that this is not creating jobs, just legalizing. But as statistics and social security are concerned, jobs are being created.

Second by allowing flexibility, some jobs that were until now too expensive to be created because they would require two persons working 40 or 48 hours each, can now be offered.
I imagine some low duty work such as sitting on a chair reading a magazine until a monitor beeps, mowing lawn and gathering leafs etc
But more specificaly there could situations when one ned somebody 60 hours a week: Under the current legislation this has to be done through two 3/4 times of 30h which is more expensive and more complicated than one full time +1/4.

The only problem is if the hourly salary depreciate.
We can imagine that on the long term, long weeks become the norm and finaly the basic salary which coupled with inflation, is the same than a 48h week salary a few years before.

I don't think we will get there soon but I agree it's worth watching.

Today, there's a joke by El Roto (EL PAIS) about the first point of your answer. I find this thing pretty adapted to my opinion.

http://www.elpais.com/vineta/?d_date=20080625&autor=El%20Roto&anchor=elpporopivin&xref=20080625elpepivin_4&type=Tes&k=Roto

Translation:
Look, leave you of unions and intermediaries, and you and I agree, freely, on your working conditions
Yes Sir


And finally, I can admit, as you are explaining, that there are several jobs that can need different work conditions but for these situations we have sectoral agreements that IMO are more suited to solve these cases rather than a huge proposition like this. 

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