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Dormouse
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« Reply #30 on: April 26, 2008, 04:53:57 AM » |
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From all of your reply,I guess I was wrong,I shouldn't come here to post a thread like that.Frist,I wanna talk about Tibet,then you talk about chairman mao,when I say something about chairman mao,I become a people who just know praise him.
all right!
Sorry to waste your time to see my propaganda thread!!!!!!!!
You are entirely correct. Asking westerners to support Chinese imperialism in Tibet will only draw venum. That's a waste of time. And it is not anti-Chinese. Its simply anti-imperialism. Btw, you obviously haven't noticed that no western government has taken any kind of action against China over Tibet. Thus, you cannot say western nations are against China - they are quietly letting China rape Tibet. A few western protesters are making noise, but not much and no one is paying much attention. In other words, most western countries officially don't give a damn that China is raping Tibet right now. |
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cauboi
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« Reply #31 on: April 26, 2008, 05:57:27 AM » |
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Zhr,
It seems that you cannot take any criticism about your country. I know that people in China cannot speak out for fear of repression, so they have to watch out their words and even the meaning of the words, as you pointed out to me. Not where I live, budd.
As Dormouse said: I don't give a damn about Tibet political situation, I just don't like to see weak people being bullied by your kind of people (those people that go with the official communist propaganda agenda).
Did you even think that you can throw out some party (The Olympic Games) and all the West will fall in love with China ?
So, Comrade Zhr, what makes you say that you are the voice of the oppressed Chinese people? Because your father is a big boss in the Party, you think you are the messenger ?
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #32 on: April 26, 2008, 08:23:17 AM » |
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As Dormouse said: I don't give a damn about Tibet political situation, I just don't like to see weak people being bullied by your kind of people (those people that go with the official communist propaganda agenda). Yep. I think if Zhr came to find out what the problem everyone has with it, that pretty much sums it up. What we see is just another example of a big communist juggernaut swallowing up a tiny neighbor on whatever pretenses it wants to use. We've seen it a lot in the past century, and it would seem regardless of your politics or your home, most don't like it. Ahk |
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #33 on: April 26, 2008, 09:14:05 AM » |
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Zhr,
If you are still there, please don't take our criticism at first degree. Nobody means to insult you or China. Mao maybe, but you anger shows how Mao is still an inattackable holly figure, a sort of half-god and a cult idol in China.
Russians have had the courage to admit their past failure, the failure of communism and have pulled down the statues of Lenin and Stalin (and sold some of them on e-Bay, LOL).
You, despite that your country has completely changed, you are still with your communist party, and the portrait of your chinese Stalin on Tien An Men square.
All these orgies of red flags are a bit ridiculous in 2007 IMO, especialy since China is maybe the wildest capitalist place ever now, exactely the oposite of Karl Marx's ideal.
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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zhr
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« Reply #34 on: April 26, 2008, 09:36:06 AM » |
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You are entirely correct. Asking westerners to support Chinese imperialism in Tibet will only draw venum. That's a waste of time. And it is not anti-Chinese. Its simply anti-imperialism. Btw, you obviously haven't noticed that no western government has taken any kind of action against China over Tibet. Thus, you cannot say western nations are against China - they are quietly letting China rape Tibet. A few western protesters are making noise, but not much and no one is paying much attention. In other words, most western countries officially don't give a damn that China is raping Tibet right now. [/quote] We rape Tibet??You know Tibetan has more policy than our Han Chinese?They needn't obey the family planning,they can go to school free,government protect their words and cultures,etc.We've been built a railway(The hardest railway in the world) to Tibet to accelerate their ecomic ,and communciate with our mainland more.Do you know these things??This is the things we can see by our government! Why all of you hate the CP???or hate our communsim???I just know my life become better and better,not rich but better.Yes,of course,I'll say "that our country are not good in this way or in that way,look the western cuntry,we should learn from them." But think about it,we have 1.3billion people.Our 1.3billion people need to eat every day.Our government can meet it,I guess even American can't say this is nothing for them.BTW,China is a big county but we have less plough and even we can't use a lot of places.Imagine,how hard it would be??Can you promise your country will do it better too?? I'm not here just to praise our government,You talked about Human rights,compare with western world,we really short at that.But You can denial all the things about our government.right? I don't wanna change your mind or something,If i am westerners,i will have the same opinion i guess.Because I think we've told different storeis on too many things and even we learned different storeis in our books! But I wanna use a Offical said,If you wanna take China as an enmy,we'll accept it,and be a "Reponsible" enmy. You said no action to aganist China??So why western media use the wrong pictures and tell wrong reports??Why a TV station will say an ambulance as a army car in Tibet???Why will 3 news cars beside the Tibetian roiters group and no one news car beside Chinese student abroad group when the torch in Paris???Why they just intervies the roiters and don't interview our Chinese students???Even interview,but they cut this on TV???Why??? What's your democracy and human rights???They just wanna report what they want,you think this is fair?  ?Do you know the things above???Do you see the video how the ritors hurt Han Chinese on roads in Tibet??Do you know a little girl are died in a burning a house(and her parents and a innocent Tibetan) by those people you always think kind???Do you know the things??? |
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zhr
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« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2008, 09:36:44 AM » |
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We rape Tibet??You know Tibetan has more policy than our Han Chinese?They needn't obey the family planning,they can go to school free,government protect their words and cultures,etc.We've been built a railway(The hardest railway in the world) to Tibet to accelerate their ecomic ,and communciate with our mainland more.Do you know these things??This is the things we can see by our government! Why all of you hate the CP???or hate our communsim???I just know my life become better and better,not rich but better.Yes,of course,I'll say "that our country are not good in this way or in that way,look the western cuntry,we should learn from them." But think about it,we have 1.3billion people.Our 1.3billion people need to eat every day.Our government can meet it,I guess even American can't say this is nothing for them.BTW,China is a big county but we have less plough and even we can't use a lot of places.Imagine,how hard it would be??Can you promise your country will do it better too?? I'm not here just to praise our government,You talked about Human rights,compare with western world,we really short at that.But You can denial all the things about our government.right? I don't wanna change your mind or something,If i am westerners,i will have the same opinion i guess.Because I think we've told different storeis on too many things and even we learned different storeis in our books! But I wanna use a Offical said,If you wanna take China as an enmy,we'll accept it,and be a "Reponsible" enmy. You said no action to aganist China??So why western media use the wrong pictures and tell wrong reports??Why a TV station will say an ambulance as a army car in Tibet???Why will 3 news cars beside the Tibetian roiters group and no one news car beside Chinese student abroad group when the torch in Paris???Why they just intervies the roiters and don't interview our Chinese students???Even interview,but they cut this on TV???Why??? What's your democracy and human rights???They just wanna report what they want,you think this is fair? ?Do you know the things above???Do you see the video how the ritors hurt Han Chinese on roads in Tibet??Do you know a little girl are died in a burning a house(and her parents and a innocent Tibetan) by those people you always think kind???Do you know the things??? |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2008, 02:54:04 PM » |
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for it is written: a big communist juggernaut swallowing up a tiny neighbor on whatever pretenses it wants to use. ha, how reminiscent of some anarchistic nonsense trashed out by an East European radical in here. "Communist juggernaut" is a novelty (wtf cares what kind of juggernaut does the swallowing), but "swallowing up a tiny neighbor on whatever pretenses" is so nihilistic. Even if Tibet had been a part of China for three million years, that would be in no way relevant to the dispute. Only the wishes of the affected populace are. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Ahkenaten
Forum Administrator
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« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2008, 09:55:46 PM » |
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Yes I know Pistachios. The old '50's replay of "communist juggernaut" was a reflection of Western view, not actually the words I would use for my opinion. I was speaking of common perception and couldn't help putting in my own cynicism. Glad you couldn't pick up on it.
Did you come out of retirement just to attach yourself to my leg like a leech? A barnacle maybe?
Ahk
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #38 on: April 28, 2008, 08:46:31 AM » |
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Did you come out of retirement just to attach yourself to my leg like a leech? no. I posted replies to other users than Yourselves. We debated annexing "tiny neighbor on whatever pretenses". I was with the tiny neighbours, and you were with the juggernauts. Then it changed once Tibet was brought in. make up your mind on when exactly swallowing tiny neighbors is acceptible, and when it is not. For me it never is. Irrespective of whether the juggernaut seems to be communist or strongly in favor of free market. Simple position. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Ahkenaten
Forum Administrator
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Professor of Angular Mil and Applied Narcotics
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« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2008, 10:04:10 AM » |
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We debated annexing "tiny neighbor on whatever pretenses". I was with the tiny neighbours, and you were with the juggernauts. Then it changed once Tibet was brought in. make up your mind on when exactly swallowing tiny neighbors is acceptible, and when it is not. For me it never is. Irrespective of whether the juggernaut seems to be communist or strongly in favor of free market. Simple position. No no no. No we're not. Please read carefully: "We" aren't debating anything. YOU need to argue at all costs, that's why when I just finished telling you I was being cynical and describing "general" Western view, which I don't necessarily agree with, (which means *I'm* not really "saying it"), you continue on like you've never heard a thing. So go ahead and keep babbling. Maybe you'll realize what "cynical" means and embarrass yourself or maybe you'll just not "get it" and continue to argue with yourself. If I had the time I'd take you by the hand and explain what cynical means or what "tongue-in-cheek" means but I don't. I was with the tiny neighbours, and you were with the juggernauts. What tiny neighbors? Afghanistan and Pakistan? A religious cult vs the religion it bases itself on? The Israeli Palestinians? You'd be wrong for any number of reasons if it's any of those. The Israeli/Pal situation because I do believe Palestinians have right to territory and don't believe Israeli presence was initially justified beyond the call of one Empire or the previous. Afghanistan and Pakistan? I wouldn't have really considered to apply. Explain. Religious Cult vs the non-violent, non-brainwashing one? The one that was in the minority except for it's reliance on force intimidation, starvation and execution? Don't really see a China/Tibet metaphor there, sorry. Chechnya? I dunno. Help me out. Maybe if you stopped speaking in riddles and plainly address your concern in, like, plain but sufficiently verbose English? Instead of vague mumbling? Ahk |
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« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 10:36:55 AM by Ahkenaten »
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2008, 04:38:30 AM » |
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What tiny neighbors? all peoples violently deprived of independence, violently ovetaken by foreign powers, violently denied self-determination (btw, Tibet is far from "tiny"). We've been through the list. Chechnya (u had special venom against her, i dunno why), Kurdistan (there really is a broad concensus against the Kurds), ...eh, Quebec. Wasn't it exactly about swallowing a neighbor?You made then a push into East Europe chiding the confusing multitude of little countries whereas a few big ones would be more manageable. Recall also what i said about deconstructing Afghanistan into more homogenous, more stable Pashtu and Uzbeck-Tajic parts. Pakistan with the oppression of Beluchis. Sri Lanka. Certainly Palestine. Afghanistan and Pakistan? I wouldn't have really considered to apply. my long-awaited praise to you. Afghanistan has endured meddlings and intrusions from all neighbors, and not only neighbors. Paki and Arab meddling should stop. But the larger question is what Afghanistan really is. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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solvay
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« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2008, 06:05:31 AM » |
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Just Now I login the forum and find that the ban for me is cancelled and I can talk with everybody freely. Freedom Hooray! I think I must tell all of you a truth that Tibet never is a country and it's a part of China from of old. Tibet under jurisdiction since 13th century
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-04-29 14:00
A Tibetan scholar has refuted the allegation of the popular book "Tibet: A Political History" on the "independent status" of the autonomous region since ancient times, the flagship People's Daily newspaper reported on Tuesday.
Basang Wangdu, International Association for Tibetan Studies (IATS) council member, said China's central government had exercised effective jurisdiction over Tibet since the 13th century, discrediting the de facto "Tibet independence" argument written by Tsepon W. D. Shakabpa, a visiting Yale University scholar and former Tibetan regional government official.
Basang Wangdu, who also heads the ethnic studies institute of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Academy of Social Sciences, said the "Tibet independence" advocacy of the Dalai clique was largely based on the book that twisted and fabricated history, the newspaper said.
In the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368), Basang Wangdu said the central government mandated three regional leaders who administered Tibetan-populated areas in West China. In 1288, the Yuan regime formalized a ministry-level organ to administer the whole Tibetan region.
Meanwhile, the Yuan central government registered Tibetan households, set up 27 post houses, and took the responsibility of nominating regional officials, Basang Wangdu said in the newspaper.
The following Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) continued the jurisdiction over Tibet, featuring the acknowledged submission of the Tibetan regional regime to the central government, the central government's deployment of regional administrative and military organs, and the imperial conferring of the highest religious titles to monk leaders.
After the Qing Imperial Court took control over China, an outstanding religious leader of the Gelug Sect (the Yellow Sect), Ngawang Lozang Gyatso, paid an official visit to the Qing capital, Beijing, and was conferred the Dalai Lama by the Qing emperor, the newspaper said.
Since then, it has been ritualized that the Dalai Lama should be conferred by the central government.
In addition, the Qing Imperial Court restructured the administrative arrangement of the Tibetan regional government and regulated the procedure to decide the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama reincarnate, the newspaper said.
After it was founded in 1911, the Republic of China government reaffirmed the central government's authority over Tibet. Tibet elected 20 delegates to the national congress in 1913.
In 1927, the central government set up a special commission to oversee Tibetan affairs, which was followed by the Dalai Lama initiative to kick off his representative office in 1931 in Nanjing, then capital of the republic. The central government, as in the tradition, rectified the reincarnation of both the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, sent representatives to preside over the most sacred installation ceremonies of the new Dalai and Panchen.
Basang Wangdu said the establishment of the People's Republic of China was welcomed by both religious and secular people in Tibet. On October 29, 1951, the People's Liberation Army arrived in Lhasa. The central government announced the organization of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Government in 1965.
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Ahkenaten
Forum Administrator
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« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2008, 10:04:11 AM » |
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Chechnya (u had special venom against her, i dunno why), Kurdistan (there really is a broad concensus against the Kurds), ...eh, Quebec. Chechnya...no I have no special venom towards her. That's your projection. I am under the impression (there is evidence of this historically) that not only are the muslims not in the majority, who, according to my info from a Chechnian as well as news favor inclusion in Russia, and that anytime the central government appears weak that's when the Chechnian muslim minority decides this is a good reason to start killing. At any rate I only ever addressed the internal conflict between the chechnian muslims and the rest. Then there's Kurdistan. Now somewhere along the line you got it in your head that I am against Kurdish independence. This is a mystery to me where you got that idea. Suffice to say when you got over-emotional about it one day "What will it take for you to have some fucking sympathy for these (Kurdish and Chechnian) people" ...it made me simply ignore you since I gave nothing to idicate that or give you that idea, and also since you seemed to only care about Chechnian desires if they are part of the Muslim minority. Either way Kurdistan has no connection. I have nothing against Kurdistan independence and I spoke only of Chechnian internal conflict. So there's no connection. Quebec? Violently subjected? Well we did have a short battle and somebody was going to loose. Maybe France should've given a shit. Maybe Quebec should get over themselves and realize they're not so much French as Norman....s'like English who speak French. The fact is we got into this "independence" argument not because of my insistence that everything is the same but rather yours. You see no possibility of people simply trying to grab power on the pretext of independence when in fact there's little reason at all for separation, let alone violence. Suffice to say, whenever a nobody politician wants recognition he starts banging the independence drum....only to cease the rhythm once he gets somewhere. Speaks to my point: the powergrab on the false pretense of independence. You are also woefully forgetting or uneducated to the history of the world -- not isolated conflicts but rather the ebb and flow of nation states coming together under empire when the needs are mutual, and once these smaller nations get power -- power and growth they only gained by being part of an empire --- then they desire to break up again. Once broken up into smaller states they waste no time in warring with each other until one becomes dominant and takes over many...becoming an empire and starting the whole cycle over again. In other words, contrary to what you believe, "independence for anyone who wants it" will not change a history of war over demarcated resources --- resources that get shared within an empire but are fought over when states are independent. So while one can point to wars being caused by a fight for independence one can also easily see that independence -- despite all it's romantic overtures -- does not lead to more peace and less war like you suppose. my long-awaited praise to you. Afghanistan has endured meddlings and intrusions from all neighbors, and not only neighbors. Paki and Arab meddling should stop. Considering this has been my story unchanged since day one it's not the praise that was long awaited but rather your understanding and willingness to listen. Ahk |
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« Last Edit: April 29, 2008, 03:14:22 PM by Ahkenaten »
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cauboi
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« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2008, 02:05:01 PM » |
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Peisi and Ahk
Guys, I don't mean to interrupt anything here, but did you notice that you 2 hijacked the thread with your little who's-pissing-higher contest ?
It's none of my business anyway, just a remark.
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #44 on: April 29, 2008, 05:06:07 PM » |
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Just Now I login the forum and find that the ban for me is cancelled and I can talk with everybody freely. Freedom Hooray! I think I must tell all of you a truth that Tibet never is a country and it's a part of China from of old. Tibet under jurisdiction since 13th century
(Xinhua)
Updated: 2008-04-29 14:00
A Tibetan scholar has refuted the allegation of the popular book "Tibet: A Political History" on the "independent status" of the autonomous region since ancient times, the flagship People's Daily newspaper reported on Tuesday.
Basang Wangdu, International Association for Tibetan Studies (IATS) council member, said China's central government had exercised effective jurisdiction over Tibet since the 13th century, discrediting the de facto "Tibet independence" argument written by Tsepon W. D. Shakabpa, a visiting Yale University scholar and former Tibetan regional government official.
Basang Wangdu, who also heads the ethnic studies institute of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Academy of Social Sciences, said the "Tibet independence" advocacy of the Dalai clique was largely based on the book that twisted and fabricated history, the newspaper said.
In the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368), Basang Wangdu said the central government mandated three regional leaders who administered Tibetan-populated areas in West China. In 1288, the Yuan regime formalized a ministry-level organ to administer the whole Tibetan region.
Meanwhile, the Yuan central government registered Tibetan households, set up 27 post houses, and took the responsibility of nominating regional officials, Basang Wangdu said in the newspaper.
The following Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) continued the jurisdiction over Tibet, featuring the acknowledged submission of the Tibetan regional regime to the central government, the central government's deployment of regional administrative and military organs, and the imperial conferring of the highest religious titles to monk leaders.
After the Qing Imperial Court took control over China, an outstanding religious leader of the Gelug Sect (the Yellow Sect), Ngawang Lozang Gyatso, paid an official visit to the Qing capital, Beijing, and was conferred the Dalai Lama by the Qing emperor, the newspaper said.
Since then, it has been ritualized that the Dalai Lama should be conferred by the central government.
In addition, the Qing Imperial Court restructured the administrative arrangement of the Tibetan regional government and regulated the procedure to decide the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama reincarnate, the newspaper said.
After it was founded in 1911, the Republic of China government reaffirmed the central government's authority over Tibet. Tibet elected 20 delegates to the national congress in 1913.
In 1927, the central government set up a special commission to oversee Tibetan affairs, which was followed by the Dalai Lama initiative to kick off his representative office in 1931 in Nanjing, then capital of the republic. The central government, as in the tradition, rectified the reincarnation of both the Dalai Lama and the Panchen Lama, sent representatives to preside over the most sacred installation ceremonies of the new Dalai and Panchen.
Basang Wangdu said the establishment of the People's Republic of China was welcomed by both religious and secular people in Tibet. On October 29, 1951, the People's Liberation Army arrived in Lhasa. The central government announced the organization of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Government in 1965.
Because the official mouthpiece of the government says so. My you're credulous! |
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« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 09:45:27 PM by Wiglaf »
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
Judge Learned Hand
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