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freethinker
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« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2008, 09:53:35 AM » |
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- Daddy Daddy Daddy!! Don't let them tell me I came from the apes...they smell bad!
- No darlin' you came here by magic.
- You mean like David Copperfield?
- Well, Mommy did go to his show, but she didn't go back stage!!! At least thats what she told me!
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Yes we can ...and now we will...
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neue regel
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« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2008, 09:58:53 AM » |
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- Daddy Daddy Daddy!! Don't let them tell me I came from the apes...they smell bad!
- No darlin' you came here by magic.
- You mean like David Copperfield?
- Well, Mommy did go to his show, but she didn't go back stage!!! At least thats what she told me! LOL!!! Pretty good. Actually, to say 'something' came from nothing (evolution) is a little closer to 'magic' to me... just sayin... |
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2008, 10:05:01 AM » |
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to say 'something' came from nothing (evolution) is a little closer to 'magic' to me... Except that's not what evolution says. I would be interested in anyone coming forward with an example of any natural process in the universe that does not evolve. Even the Church evolved from the Roman empire. Christianity evolved from Judaism. Neither resemble the one that came before very well. Saying that evolution states people = monkeys is like saying Christians are just Romans....(who were just an offshoot of Greeks). Just sayin', Ahk |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 10:11:09 AM by Ahkenaten »
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neue regel
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« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2008, 10:11:20 AM » |
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Except that's not what evolution says.
Just sayin',
Ahk What does the theory say if not that? |
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2008, 10:13:16 AM » |
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It says it came from what came before it and ultimately from amino acids that mutated from cosmic radiation.
You can laugh at that if you like, and I'll laugh at "Anything I dont understand = God-did-it".
Where did Broccoli come from? It didnt exist and then it was spliced/bred (mutated. evolved) from wild cabbage. Presto! Something from "nothing".
What about Dalmations? There were none and they were bred/mutated and now they exist. Something from "nothing".
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 10:21:07 AM by Ahkenaten »
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neue regel
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« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2008, 10:19:49 AM » |
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You can laugh at that if you like No no no...I'm not laughing. Just trying to understand. It says it came from what came before it The Big Bang Theory is commonly held...agreed? It is commonly accepted now that there was a 'beginning.' Now...here is the kicker...where did the infinitely condensed matter from which the universe sprung come from? It either came from somewhere, appeared out of thin air, or was created. Not a lot of room for other choices. Does evolution believe that, like I said, something (matter) appeared out of nothing? |
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2008, 10:27:55 AM » |
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No no no...I'm not laughing. Just trying to understand. Okay okay... but bare in mind Im not the expert of evolution. The Big Bang Theory is commonly held...agreed? It is commonly accepted now that there was a 'beginning.' Now...here is the kicker...where did the infinitely condensed matter from which the universe sprung come from? It either came from somewhere, appeared out of thin air, or was created. Well it's called a theory for a reason: It's our best guess at the moment. The further theory states that this is a cycle...that is to say for every big bang, there will eventually be a "big squeeze." Everything (matter) will pull back together until it cant any longer and goes "big bang" again. Subsequently the BB was not so much a beginning as merely part of the cycle. now remember: a theory is a theory. It might not be easy to have faith in that because we pre-emptly recognize it with a possibility to be incorrect or not precise. Some like to hold that as science's weakness, yet nobody calls "God" or their religion a theory do they? Nor do they generally consider the rest of physics a theory.  Remember now Im not so much endorsing evolution as saying that it's more than "something from nothing". Ahk |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 10:35:01 AM by Ahkenaten »
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neue regel
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« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2008, 10:39:26 AM » |
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Some like to hold that as science's weakness, yet nobody calls "God" or their religion a theory do they? Religion, or, more pointedly, a faith in a real and living God, is just that...faith. It is nothing that will EVER been proven in a test tube. I'm reading a book "Know Why You Believe" that address some of these issues. I find myself questioning the idea of God from time to time. It is because my faith isn't as strong as it should be. But when I read about the complexities of this universe, I can come to no other conclusion than there IS an intelligent designer. There just can't be THAT many chance happenings. |
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Patton
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« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2008, 11:56:56 AM » |
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Where did Broccoli come from? It didnt exist and then it was spliced/bred (mutated. evolved) from wild cabbage. Presto! Something from "nothing". No......"wild cabbage" is something.......not nothing...... What about Dalmations? There were none and they were bred/mutated and now they exist. Something from "nothing". No....bred from other dogs which are something.......not nothing...... Life from non-life is not the same.....that is something from nothing.....ie: magic |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2008, 12:12:23 PM » |
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No......"wild cabbage" is something.......not nothing......
Yes that's the point. That's why I put "nothing" in quotes. The only way you can say evolution is something from nothing is to stop going back at some point...to stop peeling off the onion skins so to speak. To not consider where broccoli came from and assume it "always was" is the same thing as saying humans "always were". Life from non-life is not the samethat is something from nothing.....ie: magic Again you arbitraily decide to stop looking back....arbitrarily deciding the vanishing point of where human life "begins" and then calling it magic. In terms of the broccoli example you are not considering the "cabbage" which is not the same as broccoli, but nevertheless came from it. Something came before the cabbage as well. Neadrathals? They came before us. Not the same as us but that's where we're coming from. And what came before them? And so on and so on. You need to consider them. Or is that all a hoax? Because the "missing link" in terms of the entire picture is a very small thing to go "missing". Closer to reality is simply hasnt been found yet. Are amino acids life? Can we have life without them? Did they come from nothing? Did they not come before us? Ahk |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 12:16:58 PM by Ahkenaten »
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Patton
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« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2008, 12:26:21 PM » |
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Are amino acids life? No. Can we have life without them? Don't believe so. Did they come from nothing? No. Did they not come before us? Yes. I don't think this line of questioning gets you any closer to the point you wish to make.....maybe getting straight to the point would help clarify things a little........ |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 12:37:30 PM by Patton »
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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neue regel
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« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2008, 12:35:13 PM » |
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The only way evolution can stand on its merits is to say that 'matter' had no beginning. Then, one must believe that matter randomly mutated into a living being...if only a simple form. Then, given the benefit of eons of time, morphed into something more and more complex.
For me, that's a huge pill to swallow.
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Abraxas
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« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2008, 12:39:14 PM » |
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While we're on the topic about where human life started - and for that matter, the universe - could someone explain to me where God came from?
Can't we all just agree to say that we DO. NOT. KNOW?
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Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune.
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Patton
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« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2008, 12:41:06 PM » |
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The only way evolution can stand on its merits is to say that 'matter' had no beginning. Then, one must believe that matter randomly mutated into a living being...if only a simple form. Then, given the benefit of eons of time, morphed into something more and more complex.
For me, that's a huge pill to swallow.
It's the religion of science that would have you choke on that pill......undemonstratable and unproven theories are just like magic and are taken on faith...... |
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Battle is the most magnificent competition in which a human being can indulge. It brings out all that is best; it removes all that is base. All men are afraid in battle. The coward is the one who lets his fear overcome his sense of duty. Duty is the essence of manhood
-George S. Patton
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2008, 12:41:34 PM » |
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The point Patton is that evolution is no more a statement of "something from nothing" than to say broccoli came form nothing. I'm confident the point is clear. I'm not sure I can make it clearer. If you don't believe in evolution then you believe humans are as they always were and we're yet not even like our Roman ancestors. They were shorter, hairier and the soles of their feet were tougher because they didn’t have 1000 years of hard-soled shoes their ancestors walked on. In other words we've evolved (minorly) from people only that far back. We simply dont bother to categorize them differently. Seems quite clear to me. Can you point me to any natural process in the universe - beside humans - that did not evolve from something else? Perhaps you can point me to some proof that God put us here…something besides “what other explanation is there?” Diseases and bugs evolve. Solar systems evolve. Everything but us? Fact is evolution takes the credit for creation out of God's hands which is why it's pointless debating it with someone who believes God made everything (unless Im misconstruing you)....well...everything except broccoli, right? Yes....you may want to define "life" if you are attempting to make a point.
Okay. Us. Could we exist without amino acids? Which came first? The only way evolution can stand on its merits is to say that 'matter' had no beginning. Then, one must believe that matter randomly mutated into a living being...if only a simple form. No. We can say that we don't know. In fact admitting that there are places we can't yet insert a reliable answer is one of the major differneces between science and religion. This si because it properly represents perception. We don't always see everything all at once right? Look at the first maps of the US....the whole west is just a wide "unkonwn". Does that make mapping useless? In religion when you don't have an answer you just make one and have faith in it. Can't we all just agree to say that we DO. NOT. KNOW? ultimately yes. In the sense that we dont know where the onion skins will end and what we will find there. Ahk |
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« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 12:51:13 PM by Ahkenaten »
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