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IamMe
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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2007, 11:49:12 AM » |
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If there are school rules against hats or scarves already no exception should be made.
Easy for you to say, your lively hood isn't determined by a piece of cloth over your head. In a secular society the rules apply equally to everyone regardless of religion. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
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IamMe
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2007, 11:51:38 AM » |
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If there are school rules against hats or scarves already no exception should be made.
That would be sensible before joining a school and being presented and told that no religious attire either would be permitted... No I disagree. Religious attire should be allowed as long as it doesn't break some other rule. There should be no rules against religious attire per se. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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IamMe
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 11:55:20 AM » |
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Shouldn't ones religious beliefs be honoured and respected?
No. They should be tolerated but no special rules should be made. I am not sure as to why the women wear scarves for covering their heads but I think that regardless of where this is taking place that there should be respect up held to them.
It's got very little to do with religion and a lot to do with male dominance. The Koran says women should dress modestly and the hadith indicates that the wives of the prophet wore veils. The hadith also indicates that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old girl though I doubt you are saying that that should be allowed. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 04:48:59 PM » |
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Gojira,Let them wear headscraves. If turkish youth want to look like arabs, why not? If they want to be closer to Iraq, Syria and Saoudi Arabia, that's their choice. Maybe the next logical step for these young women would be to push for a driving ban for women...  What I mean is that the underlining problem is not the piece of cloth, but the direction the Turkish society and the turkish mentality is taking. It's even not the question of worrying or not. If they are happy disguising themselves as arab, that's good. Why should we worry when poeple are happy? If the ideal model for the young turkish poeple is a mix of Pakistanese, Sudanese and Yemenite models and that the headscarve is only the visible reflection of that, then they will join the happy club of the Syria-Iraq-Iran-Afghanistan quranic belt (Allah-U-Akbar!). Banning headscarves won't stop that. not banning them would at least reveal the true intention of the new generation.
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« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 04:51:31 PM by Fredledingue »
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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Terry Mathis
High Society
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Goulburn NSW Australia Dual Australian/U.S.
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 05:13:27 PM » |
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Gojira had it right from the beginning, I fully agree and understand. One should see what Saudi Women go through (we have a book about a Saudi Lady called "Princess"). Actually, I'm mad enough about how all women are treated in the Mid-East and are considered 'chattel' (property).
Let the bloody men fight their wars and die, give them a dose of reality before they go home if they survive!
The ladies in the ME deserve so much better. Now, I know there are good, functional families and good husbands as well.
By the way, our favourite family are from Egypt and are Muslim. Hisham and Sophia are brother and sister to us and we to them.
Salaam Aleikum
Terry
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 01:35:14 AM by Terry Mathis »
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
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targo88
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2007, 11:34:02 PM » |
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Shouldn't ones religious beliefs be honoured and respected?
No. They should be tolerated but no special rules should be made. I never said that there should be anything special extended to them because of their beliefs and their choices. I simply stated that we should extend respect towards them. I am not sure as to why the women wear scarves for covering their heads but I think that regardless of where this is taking place that there should be respect up held to them.
It's got very little to do with religion and a lot to do with male dominance. The Koran says women should dress modestly and the hadith indicates that the wives of the prophet wore veils. The hadith also indicates that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old girl though I doubt you are saying that that should be allowed. Obviously that is your inturpretation of their beliefs and regardless of whether or not there is truth in that, people believe that to be what they need to do in order to honour their respective beliefs. Shouldn't we then still respect their decsions and their choices in life? |
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CedarPride
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2007, 03:38:51 AM » |
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Gojira,Let them wear headscraves. If turkish youth want to look like arabs, why not? If they want to be closer to Iraq, Syria and Saoudi Arabia, that's their choice. Maybe the next logical step for these young women would be to push for a driving ban for women... Arabs are not the only ones who wear headscarves. Iranians do too. And so do many Muslims in Turkey. This is NOT an Arab thing, this is a Muslim thing. Unless in your mind Freddie, Arab and Muslim is the same thing, then I don't see why you called me a Christian Arab in another thread. Or do we all come in one block to you...unless we agree with you of course  |
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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CedarPride
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2007, 03:47:36 AM » |
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I say they should be allowed to wear the veil if they so wish. It is about religious freedom, and has nothing to do with politics.
Separating politics from religion works both ways. Religion should be out of politics, and religious beliefs should be personal. The state has no right to interfere with the religious beliefs of individuals unless they become threatening.
Some religious beliefs are apparent such as the veil, whereas others are not, such as praying.
Suppose that during the holy month of Ramadan, a turkish student doesn't want to fast. He/She has the right to eat during the day, right? because this falls under freedom of belief. So he is given the freedom NOT to live according to the teachings of his religion. In the same way, a student who wants to cover her head must be allowed to do so because this also falls under HER right for freedom of belief.
Why would freedom of belief apply to those who don't believe and not to those who do?
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Middle East forum 101 I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic. |
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Rachel
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2007, 08:07:38 AM » |
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I think everyone is mixing up the difference between 'religious freedoms' and 'inherent customs.' The United States advocates religious freedom - the right to worship as you see fit. But - the trouble comes into play depending on where you live in this country. In some areas - Christian customs do not always look kindly on Muslim practices. Yet - in larger metro areas - where there is a greater percentage of immigrants - people tend to be a little more tolerant. Because in those areas - there are so many different cultures and customs living together side by side. For example - take a Muslim family and move them to a predominantly Baptist neighborhood and you're going to have problems. But - that same family living somewhere in New York City - would have less to consider.
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Gojira
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2007, 08:32:58 AM » |
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I think everyone is mixing up the difference between 'religious freedoms' and 'inherent customs.' The United States advocates religious freedom - the right to worship as you see fit. But - the trouble comes into play depending on where you live in this country. In some areas - Christian customs do not always look kindly on Muslim practices. Yet - in larger metro areas - where there is a greater percentage of immigrants - people tend to be a little more tolerant. Because in those areas - there are so many different cultures and customs living together side by side. For example - take a Muslim family and move them to a predominantly Baptist neighborhood and you're going to have problems. But - that same family living somewhere in New York City - would have less to consider.
America and Turkey are two completely different countries. The only comparison I can see is that we both are fighting for secular states; one against fundamentalist Islam and the other fundamentalist Christianity. |
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Our democracy has created an environment of indecision at times of impending crisis.
If life is easy for you, then you aint livin.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2007, 11:59:32 AM » |
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Gojira,Let them wear headscraves. If turkish youth want to look like arabs, why not? If they want to be closer to Iraq, Syria and Saoudi Arabia, that's their choice. Maybe the next logical step for these young women would be to push for a driving ban for women... Arabs are not the only ones who wear headscarves. Iranians do too. And so do many Muslims in Turkey. This is NOT an Arab thing, this is a Muslim thing. Unless in your mind Freddie, Arab and Muslim is the same thing, then I don't see why you called me a Christian Arab in another thread. Or do we all come in one block to you...unless we agree with you of course I said "if they want to look like arab" as an example but they can also look like Iranian, Pashtun or Nigerian if they prefer those fashions. I said "arab" because arabs are the most pototypical of all muslims. But they will not look like modern XXIth century women. And they won't be because such dress, while inofensive, reflects a deeper turn in their religious mentality and retarded reactionism. It's the tip of the iceberg (or of the dune should I say ). |
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Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!) |
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IamMe
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2007, 12:05:51 PM » |
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Shouldn't ones religious beliefs be honoured and respected?
No. They should be tolerated but no special rules should be made. I never said that there should be anything special extended to them because of their beliefs and their choices. I simply stated that we should extend respect towards them. There's a difference between respecting their right to believe what they want and respecting the beliefs themselves. I do te former but not the latter. I am not sure as to why the women wear scarves for covering their heads but I think that regardless of where this is taking place that there should be respect up held to them.
It's got very little to do with religion and a lot to do with male dominance. The Koran says women should dress modestly and the hadith indicates that the wives of the prophet wore veils. The hadith also indicates that Mohammed had sex with a nine year old girl though I doubt you are saying that that should be allowed. Obviously that is your inturpretation of their beliefs and regardless of whether or not there is truth in that, people believe that to be what they need to do in order to honour their respective beliefs. Shouldn't we then still respect their decsions and their choices in life? There is no explicit command in Islam saying that a veil of any kind must be worn. How you get from "modestly" to "put on a tent" is beyond me. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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