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Author Topic: Iran and Cuba slam Canada on human rights.  (Read 1342 times)
Ahkenaten
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« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2007, 05:19:52 AM »

Quote
You really don't want to know because you have been given examples and you choose to ignore them. This is a stupid thread with no object other than jsut promote more demonizing of other countries and it puts a bad taste in my mouth. I'm outta here!


You haven't given anything relevant to the issue and no, this thread about a report Iran made to 'demonize' Canada was not put here to 'demonize' Iran. In fact I say very little about Iran: I concentrate on the "report".

Perhaps you knee-jerked, figuring this was simply supposed to be an "anti-Iran" thread but I'm not like that. I'm not "anti-Iran" in the least, but the fact remains you can't deal with the issue a hand which involves ONLY Canada, Iran, the torture and killing of a photojournalist and this report.

The US has nothing to do with it and now you know it.

Ahk
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CedarPride
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« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2007, 08:53:51 AM »

I can't post a response to you without someone crying or coming to your defense to shield you from my 'savages and ravages',


Then you should deal with the person telling you that, not with me. I don't recall ever asking anyone to come to my defense. And I am not sure where that happened anyway. I don't recall reading a post in that regard.

Quote
Quote from: Cedar Pride
What do you think Iran should do, except them sitting in the corner like you want them to?

Um. I expect them to stop torturing and executing fragile old ladies because they don't like what they think. Too much to ask? Please enlighten me as to the hypocrisy here.
As I recall, I am not the one who mentioned hypocrisy in this thread, but who cares?

Oh, and I expect pedophiles to stop taking advantage of children, and if they still do, and are caught, I expect to fully cooperate with the police, admit guilt, accept to go to jail without even a trial or an attempt to defend themselves, and all this because I say so....

In a perfect world....


Nice knowing ya' too
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Middle East forum 101
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I committed the cardinal sin in the ME region of actually trying to post something relevant to the thread topic.
Ahkenaten
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« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2007, 08:58:41 AM »

Quote from: Cedar Pride
As I recall, I am not the one who mentioned hypocrisy in this thread, but who cares?
Quote from: Cedar Pride
Maybe what is bothersome is the discovery that they too know how to play this game of hypocrisy as well as the rest of them.

So what are you saying here? Yes. You're right. We kill photojournalists every day and eat muslim fetuses as a national dish. We were playing a game of hypocrisy by complaining about their human rights abuses. They've learned that "game" as well as we 'have". Yeah sure Cedar. Maybe it's "bothersome"....and maybe you can just drop your it and tell it like it is: there's no comparrison at all. Maybe that's what's bothersome? That these people put out a completely false fairie tale disguised as a report and you guys claim "It's no different then when you do it".


I'll remember that next time someone here complains about non-existant US human rigths abuses --- as if that has anything to do with Canada -- I'll just say, "Hey they learned it from Iran".


Ahk
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 09:15:28 AM by Ahkenaten » Logged
CedarPride
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« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2007, 09:33:14 AM »

Let's see how the conversation went:

Maybe they learnt their hypocrisy from the US government?

Quote
Maybe they learnt their hypocrisy from the US government?

Seems a little silly blaming the US at all costs, or perhaps you simply can't accept something simply silly unless it's connected. Was there no hypocrisy 300 years ago?


Maybe they were perfectly good with hypocrisy from the start.


And then

Would you prefer they send a "jihadist" to blow himself up somewhere in Ottawa in retaliation?

They took a very peaceful approach. Maybe they believe what they are saying, probably they are just hypocrits.

So what else is new? Isn't it the same with everyone who builds a case in the UN?
Aren't they all a bunch of hypocritical liars with double standards?

Maybe what is bothersome is the discovery that they too know how to play this game of hypocrisy as well as the rest of them.

Let's see:

Waylander mentions hypocrisy of US government (not CedarPride)

Ahk says maybe they were hypocrits from the start

CedarPride agrees with Ahk, and then says they are not the only ones who do it. Not attacking Canada, not mentioning the US, not mentioning Iraq, just saying this is normal behavior with most cases built in the UN.

All I say is that Iran is like everyone else, which is not a compliment to Iran nor an attack on Canada. Maybe my mistake in making Iranians equal to the rest of the world. How insulting!

So what are you saying here? Yes. You're right. We kill photojournalists every day and eat muslim fetuses as a national dish. We were playing a game of hypocrisy by complaining about their human rights abuses.
No what I am saying is that if Iran is playing a game of hypocrisy, this is not something alien to the UN or to world politics for that matter. Everyone and anyone does it.

Quote
They've learned that "game" as well as we 'have". Yeah sure Cedar. Maybe it's "bothersome"....and maybe you can just drop your it and tell it like it is: there's no comparrison at all. Maybe that's what's bothersome? That these people put out a completely false fairie tale disguised as a report and you guys claim "It's no different then when you do it".
Yes Ahk, it is not different than when anyone else does it. They committed a murder and they are building a case of defense, just like any criminal caught in the act will go to trial and have a lawyer. No one just sits waiting to be condemned no matter how you wish them too. Human nature. Nothing new here.

There is an even much worse behavior and that is when someone lobbies to get a cover to commit murder before they commit murder and get away with it.

Quote
I'll remember that next time someone here complains about non-existant US human rigths abuses --- as if that has anything to do with Canada -- I'll just say, "Hey they learned it from Iran".
Ahk

I hope you start addressing me based on what I write. I am only responsible for my posts.

And I stand by everythig I said ever since I joined IAP.

And I bid you farewell.
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orwells_back
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« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2007, 09:41:23 AM »

Cedar Pride! I just realized that you may truly be from Lebanon. Are you writing from Lebanon? What a great opportunity to hear comments on the issues I am interested in from a person up close. I just hope you feel free to tell it like it is and not be afraid of repercussions against you.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2007, 10:17:33 AM »

lol.

Yes repercussions are thrown against her all the time.


What did I tell you Cedar? No sooner than I write a response to you and 'boom', someone needs to come in and "protect" you.




Ahk
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2007, 10:21:23 AM »

Let's see how the conversation went:

Maybe they learnt their hypocrisy from the US government?

Quote
Maybe they learnt their hypocrisy from the US government?

Seems a little silly blaming the US at all costs, or perhaps you simply can't accept something simply silly unless it's connected. Was there no hypocrisy 300 years ago?


Maybe they were perfectly good with hypocrisy from the start.


And then

Would you prefer they send a "jihadist" to blow himself up somewhere in Ottawa in retaliation?

They took a very peaceful approach. Maybe they believe what they are saying, probably they are just hypocrits.

So what else is new? Isn't it the same with everyone who builds a case in the UN?
Aren't they all a bunch of hypocritical liars with double standards?

Maybe what is bothersome is the discovery that they too know how to play this game of hypocrisy as well as the rest of them.

Let's see:

Waylander mentions hypocrisy of US government (not CedarPride)

Ahk says maybe they were hypocrits from the start

CedarPride agrees with Ahk, and then says they are not the only ones who do it. Not attacking Canada, not mentioning the US, not mentioning Iraq, just saying this is normal behavior with most cases built in the UN.

All I say is that Iran is like everyone else, which is not a compliment to Iran nor an attack on Canada. Maybe my mistake in making Iranians equal to the rest of the world. How insulting!

So what are you saying here? Yes. You're right. We kill photojournalists every day and eat muslim fetuses as a national dish. We were playing a game of hypocrisy by complaining about their human rights abuses.
No what I am saying is that if Iran is playing a game of hypocrisy, this is not something alien to the UN or to world politics for that matter. Everyone and anyone does it.

Quote
They've learned that "game" as well as we 'have". Yeah sure Cedar. Maybe it's "bothersome"....and maybe you can just drop your it and tell it like it is: there's no comparrison at all. Maybe that's what's bothersome? That these people put out a completely false fairie tale disguised as a report and you guys claim "It's no different then when you do it".
Yes Ahk, it is not different than when anyone else does it. They committed a murder and they are building a case of defense, just like any criminal caught in the act will go to trial and have a lawyer. No one just sits waiting to be condemned no matter how you wish them too. Human nature. Nothing new here.

There is an even much worse behavior and that is when someone lobbies to get a cover to commit murder before they commit murder and get away with it.

Quote
I'll remember that next time someone here complains about non-existant US human rigths abuses --- as if that has anything to do with Canada -- I'll just say, "Hey they learned it from Iran".
Ahk

I hope you start addressing me based on what I write. I am only responsible for my posts.

And I stand by everythig I said ever since I joined IAP.

And I bid you farewell.



Don't know what you're playing at by quoting everyone else. I already quoted what you said that my comments pertained to. That answers your question.


Quote
I hope you start addressing me based on what I write. I am only responsible for my posts.

I just did. I'll do it again:

Quote
Quote from: Cedar Pride
As I recall, I am not the one who mentioned hypocrisy in this thread, but who cares?
Quote from: Cedar Pride
Maybe what is bothersome is the discovery that they too know how to play this game of hypocrisy as well as the rest of them.

So my reasonable question is: how is Canada playing a game of hypocrisy here?


Ahk
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orwells_back
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« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2007, 10:26:41 AM »

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Moreover, the document concludes, "Canada's position as a self-declared standard-bearer on human rights has been demoted to a blind-folded-and-bullied follower of the new school of unilateralism and the axis of derailment of international human rights law."  
The booklet emerges on the eve of the UN's annual summit, to be attended by Prime Minister Stephen Harper and Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier.


I won't bother supplying the link. Some of us realize that Canada has chosen a path which is in line with US aggression. Once that is established then there is little question that our foreign policy is fraught with human rights abuses. Our involvement in Afghanistan is both immoral and illegal and has little to do with improving the rights of it's citizens. (And I should just add here that that is becoming more evident as the people of Afghanistan begin to once again favour the Taliban and accept their policies as part of their government. Much to the dismay of the American made puppet, Karzai.) Instead Canada is meddling in the politics of other countries in an effort to appease the US by involving ourselves in their dishonest and phoney cause of fighting terrorism. And of course it is really also only taking the place of our being involved in the phoney Iraq war which obviously Canadians would not condone.

Therefore for this reason alone the criticisms of Canada's human rights record is at question. And of course I feel that there are other minor points to talk about because of the changes both in our foreign policies and our domestic policies since the 911 attacks. As a quick example we could talk about the treatment of Mahar Arar by our police and by the US which was condoned by Canada.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2007, 10:28:57 AM »

Again, now and 1000 posts from now until you answer the logic:

Canada did not join the US in Iraq. It spoke against it. How does that make them complicit? Answer the question or admit you don;t know what you're talking about.


Afghanistan was invaded AFTER their leadership and allies attacked. How is that a "war of aggression"?



Quote
Therefore for this reason alone the criticisms of Canada's human rights record is at question. And of course I feel that there are other minor points to talk about because of the changes both in our foreign policies and our domestic policies since the 911 attacks. As a quick example we could talk about the treatment of Mahar Arar by our police and by the US which was condoned by Canada.

Um you have yet to provide a reason....all you have done so far is show us you can not deal with a simple matter without bringing the US into it. I know you’d like to talk about Mahar or anything at all that is outside this incident so that you don’t have to deal with these facts alone. Mahar has nothing to do with this. The war on terror has nothing to do with it. The incident is isolated and you forgot all about these motions in the UN over this photojournalist  and instead insist in your delusion that this is only coming about today because it’s fashionable to pick on Iran….you also refuse to accept that Iran made a stink here not us. Is it part of our big plan to demonize Iran by forcing them to publish an absurd report? Address that issue if you can. Or any relevant issue for that matter.

I ask again: How is Canada complicit? I ask again how is this issue -- the UN motions against Iran -- which were instigated before your hated Harper government "meddleing" in their affairs on behalf of the US?




It is plain you are just making this up as you go along and trying your hardest to make the round peg fit into the round hole. If you simply refuse to awknowlege the plain facts of this incident despite all the plain obvious right in front of you and instead insist it is some kind of secret kahoots between the US and Canada to demonize Iran with out any decnt proof of this and against all the evidence to the contrary -- that you simply refuse to accept or listen to ---

Then it is you who is quite obviously brainwashed and not the least bit interested in the facts or debate.




Ahk
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 10:37:36 AM by Ahkenaten » Logged
orwells_back
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« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2007, 10:51:33 AM »

Again, now and 1000 posts from now until you answer the logic:

Canada did not join the US in Iraq. It spoke against it. How does that make them complicit? Answer the question or admit you don;t know what you're talking about.


Afghanistan was invaded AFTER their leadership and allies attacked. How is that a "war of aggression"?

You're not being logical now. Of course Canada didn't join the US in Iraq and under the Liberal government of the day it spoke against it and obeyed the wishes of the people of Canada to not take part. However, in place of taking part in the Iraq war, Canada condescended (IMO) to take part in a peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan. I did not condone that at the time because I realized that it was really just US appeasement for our refusal to become part of the coalition of the duped. As of course 9/10 of the rest of the world also recognized their Iraq war. Now, under the Harper gov it's turned into a socalled peacemaking mission which is truly US appeasement IMO.

You seem to want to discount the first Gulf war as a factor in the reasons why we now have an Iraq war and indeed one of the prime reasons the US experienced the revenge attacks of 911. I understand that it's very difficult for some people to admit that it was revenge but on this issue, the emperor (empire) truly has no clothes. Remember when it was because they were jealous of our television sets, etc. LOL

I think that's at least a start in answering your questions. And BTW, are you feigning anger in an effort to strengthen your argument? If that's the case you should understand that it's not selling very well. Let's all try a little harder shall we?



Quote
Therefore for this reason alone the criticisms of Canada's human rights record is at question. And of course I feel that there are other minor points to talk about because of the changes both in our foreign policies and our domestic policies since the 911 attacks. As a quick example we could talk about the treatment of Mahar Arar by our police and by the US which was condoned by Canada.

Um you have yet to provide a reason....all you have done so far is show us you can not deal with a simple matter without bringing the US into it. I know you’d like to talk about Mahar or anything at all that is outside this incident so that you don’t have to deal with these facts alone. Mahar has nothing to do with this. The war on terror has nothing to do with it. The incident is isolated and you forgot all about these motions in the UN over this photojournalist  and instead insist in your delusion that this is only coming about today because it’s fashionable to pick on Iran….you also refuse to accept that Iran made a stink here not us. Is it part of our big plan to demonize Iran by forcing them to publish an absurd report? Address that issue if you can. Or any relevant issue for that matter.

I ask again: How is Canada complicit? I ask again how is this issue -- the UN motions against Iran -- which were instigated before your hated Harper government "meddleing" in their affairs on behalf of the US?




It is plain you are just making this up as you go along and trying your hardest to make the round peg fit into the round hole. If you simply refuse to awknowlege the plain facts of this incident despite all the plain obvious right in front of you and instead insist it is some kind of secret kahoots between the US and Canada to demonize Iran with out any decnt proof of this and against all the evidence to the contrary -- that you simply refuse to accept or listen to ---

Then it is you who is quite obviously brainwashed and not the least bit interested in the facts or debate.




Ahk

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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2007, 10:53:21 AM »

uh huh....


Quote
You're not being logical now. Of course Canada didn't join the US in Iraq and under the Liberal government of the day it spoke against it and obeyed the wishes of the people of Canada to not take part. However, in place of taking part in the Iraq war, Canada condescended (IMO) to take part in a peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan. I did not condone that at the time because I realized that it was really just US appeasement for our refusal to become part of the coalition of the duped. As of course 9/10 of the rest of the world also recognized their Iraq war. Now, under the Harper gov it's turned into a socalled peacemaking mission which is truly US appeasement IMO.

So....anyways you admit that this "war of aggression" is entirely your own (or rather regurgitated) opinion that is not actually representative of the facts? Good.


Al Qaeda attacked. They were counter attacked in turn....further there will be no peace to keep in Afghanistan if security isn't provided first.



Ahk
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 10:57:12 AM by Ahkenaten » Logged
CedarPride
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« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2007, 11:13:06 AM »

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Quote from: Cedar Pride
Maybe what is bothersome is the discovery that they too know how to play this game of hypocrisy as well as the rest of them.

So my reasonable question is: how is Canada playing a game of hypocrisy here?

Where did I say Canada was playing a game of hypocrisy here?  Roll Eyes

Again all I said was that everyone does it at some time, this is not something special or particular to Iran

As I said, I reply very carefully to the subjects addressed and I only take responsiblity for what I say not for what others say or for what others assume I say.

Cedar Pride! I just realized that you may truly be from Lebanon. Are you writing from Lebanon? What a great opportunity to hear comments on the issues I am interested in from a person up close. I just hope you feel free to tell it like it is and not be afraid of repercussions against you.

Yes I do live in Lebanon. I am not afraid to say what I think but I have been around for over a year, my post count in IAP 1 and 2 combined is around 2500 posts, which is too much to be arguing about the same thing over and over...I am tired of this. I just saw your post and logged back so as not to sound rude for not replying but I am actually taking a break. I am sorry to be leaving as you just got in, it has nothing to do with this board which you will grow to like with time, but with being tired from posting. I just hate to leave unfinished business. I think this covers it though. 

lol.

Yes repercussions are thrown against her all the time.


What did I tell you Cedar? No sooner than I write a response to you and 'boom', someone needs to come in and "protect" you.




Ahk

This is not related to me. This is between the two of you. You may at least agree with me that you two didn't have a good start and orwell is basing his/her opinion on what went on between the two of you. I doubt he/she even knew I was a girl.

 


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orwells_back
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« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2007, 11:17:10 AM »

Quote
So....anyways you admit that this "war of aggression" is entirely your own (or rather regurgitated) opinion that is not actually representative of the facts? Good.


Al Qaeda attacked. They were counter attacked in turn....further there will be no peace to keep in Afghanistan if security isn't provided first.


No, my opinion is entirely representative of the facts. The fact in question is that it was a revenge attack on 911. It's rather ridiculous to think otherwise!

Therefore the truth of the matter is that the US attacked Iraq in 1990 and also aided the apartheid regime of the Zionists which has resulted in the deaths of  thousands of innocents. Along with the simple fact that the US is meddling on the Arabian peninsula against the wishes of the people who live there. The US is only invited by corrupt monarchies. The people, expressly, the people of the region support the goals and methods of Osama whether you like the idea or not. They hate the US and the US occupation of Iraq and the US presence elsewhere in the region for the most part. Those few citizens which the corrupt monarchies benefit of course know how their bread is buttered, I will admit.

I understand that accepting that 911 was a revenge attack is difficult for you to do but it's absolutely necessary in order to make any progress. I fear we are at an impasse already. It doesn't matter all that much to me though as I will just continue to enjoy the exchange of ideas with those who have come to terms with the facts. Have a nice day.
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Ahkenaten
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« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2007, 11:34:42 AM »

Quote
The fact in question is that it was a revenge attack on 911.

I see. So counter attacks are characterized as "revenge".

Quote
I understand that accepting that 911 was a revenge attack is difficult for you to do but it's absolutely necessary in order to make any progress.

Yes I see. No, you NEED to characterize it as revenge rather than defense because defense is acceptable and you wish to imply that revenge isn't.

Lets follow the logic:

Did or did not al Qaeda plan and conduct this attack?

Are they likely or willing to do it again?

If you answered 'yes' to either of those questions, then every reasonable argument can be made that this is as I characterized it: a defensive response. If not then you define any and all response attacks made in history as merely "revenge".  I would surmize that is then the bredth and complete reasoning behind any freedom fighter, any Palestinian or Hez attack, or even the taliban response to invasion itself: a simple 'revenge' attack. No other reason for it.

Sounds to me like you prefer to "word-smith" an argument rather than deal with facts as you suggest. Frankly since your argument seems to hindge entirely on the word "revenge" then it can't be all that solid a point can it?

Now that people in general, approvingly or not, consider it revenge may be true, certainly there is that emotional element but it is an incidental by-product of a defensive response to the original attack. No matter how you wish to re-arrange the pieces that's what it is. If NATO presence in Afghanistan is simply a US "war of aggression" then what was the 911 attack? If you say a completely understandable attack on the part of a reasonable organization who had every right -- and subsequently those who were attacked should just sit there and take it, then yes "we" are at an "impasse", but i fear this is more your problem than mine.




Ahk
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 11:42:13 AM by Ahkenaten » Logged
orwells_back
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« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2007, 12:00:42 PM »

Quote
Did or did not al Qaeda plan and conduct this attack?

Are they likely or willing to do it again?

Yes and yes. You must be right.
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