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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2008, 12:37:21 AM » |
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They simply went underground and your thesis is that there is practically no difference between capabilities of a state-supported structure, and that of an underground one  Saudi (through underground charities) is believed to be Hamas' largest source of funding all three of your references, as well as both ones in Wikipedia, come from the same author, - Matthew Levitt. Even if his info is correct, Syria's role in Hamas capabilities is...ehhh..."enormous"...that's not my word, that's how an EXPERT Gary Gambill expressed himself on the issue: ""In fact, Syrian sponsorship of Hamas has had an enormous impact on the group's operational capacities."" ""Since the mid-1990s, Damascus has been the operational headquarters of the Hamas military wing and a nexus for the transfer of external funds to Hamas operatives in the territories. Syria and Syrian-occupied Lebanon have become major conduits for funneling weapons and explosives to Hamas and safe havens for training hundreds of its operatives. btw, "enormous" is italicized in the original. Further, from Israeli gov source referenceв by Levitt whom you cite: ""The Organizational Structure and the Syrian Connection - Syria serves today as an important base of the Hamas organization, from a political, information and operational perspective. Officials in the Hamas leadership reside in Syria and conduct their operations from there. This applies particularly to the so-called political office of the Hamas, headed by Khaled Mashal. They are in regular daily contact with the Hamas leadership in the territories, headed by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, and with the terrorist operatives of Izz Al-Din Al-Qassam (Hamas battalions) in the territories. The Syrian Government enables the Hamas leadership and its terrorist commanders to conduct their various activities on its soil, including the formulation of the Hamas operational strategy, the training of terrorist operatives, the funding of terrorist activity against Israel and assistance in the purchase of arms and ammunition."" You can't really argue that the loss of all that would have almost no effect on Hamas. Or can you ? If a peace agreement is reached with Syria... Do you believe that Syria is going to, all of a sudden, start actively going after/targeting Hamas in their country in more than a symbolic fashion (for the press)??.. Syria will shut down its support for Hamas and restrain its activities in the country, but won't zealously go uprooting the uderground structure. Like Egypt and other ME states. I'm not expecting a fanatic hunt for the underground; but that's not needed. The shutting down of those numerous support lines will be enough to downgrade Hamas capabilities. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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realityman
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« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2008, 01:09:30 PM » |
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They simply went underground and your thesis is that there is practically no difference between capabilities of a state-supported structure, and that of an underground one There you go again... WHERE did I say anything of the kind??What I clearly stated was: While Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria, as (I've stated before): Hamas and their other support/funding mechanisms will simply go more underground in Syria as they as their support structures do in many other nations/countries... Saudi "charities"... and Iran will continue to funnel the funds as well as charities worldwide... and Hamas leaders, if bothered too much by new restrictions in Syria, will simply relocate or move to areas where they won't be bothered as much, to continue on with their terror Certainly a state sponsored structure is far easier for them than would be running from a more underground perspective... but ultimately the bulk of the operations would continue to function either underground in Syria, or from being relocated and/or from additional funding received from other sources... ...You can't really argue that the loss of all that would have almost no effect on Hamas AND there you go again... AGAIN: WHERE did I state or attempt to "argue" that?? (not to mention your apparent "assumption" that "all that" would would be somehow "lost" because a peace treaty was signed...lol) What I clearly stated on this topic was:
...I'm not contesting that there won't be "some" positive affect... I believe there would be..
...OF COURSE THERE WOULD BE A "loss of efficiency"...BUT a "loss of efficiency" of Hamas' operations in Syria would not significantly weaken Hamas in Palestine or stop the terror...
... While Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria, as (I've stated before): Hamas and their other support/funding mechanisms will simply go more underground in Syria as they as their support structures do in many other nations/countries... Saudi "charities"...
...If "state support" from Syria is cut off, history would seem to indicate that it's likely they'll simply adopt, getting additional funding and support from the many other friendly nations to their cause (Iran would certainly pony up) and Hamas would continue on... slightly wounded, but continue on with the terrorism, violent agenda, and Kassams targeting civilians none-the-less.
Get it?? At this point you're clearly trying to divert the subject to avoid having to back up your earlier statements: Syria is the major factor here, and the Syrian problem, that is, tha Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled
...Syria has little bearance on Hamas' aspirations, but it has vast influence on Hamas' capabilities...
......in that case it's power status will change dramatically... As I stated early on: Generally I'll agree that peace with Syria will/would have a positive effect on the region (as does peace between any nations in the region)... What I'm dissagreeing with is your implication that somehow peace with Syria will significantly weaken Hamas in Palestine...or that it needs to come first (before peace with the Palestinians) as if it would significantly smooth the way. Certainly peace with Syria would be a positive, assuming Israel's security needs are met... But even you had to admit that should an agreement be reached, Syria certainly wouldn't "zealously go uprooting the uderground structure" (of Hamas)...and, either way, that does nothing to stop the support Hamas receives from it's numerous other sources. So while peace (under the right terms) with Syria would certainly be a positive, Hamas would continue on in Palestine ...but that's not needed. The shutting down of those numerous support lines will be enough to downgrade Hamas capabilities.
And FINALLY, THANK YOU. Now it seems you're trying change the "point" to "downgrading hamas' capabilities"... WHICH IS A FAR CRY FROM trying to claim that the "Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled... or that Hamas' "power status will change dramatically".... MANY THINGS have downgraded "Hamas' capabilities" over the years... International sanctions, building a wall to keep suicide bombers out, targeting terrorists and terrorist leaders, etc.... YET HAMAS CONTINUES ON ...and continue to fire Kassams, plot terror, and refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist... I hope peace with Syria can be achieved... and it's certainly looking more likely as negotiations continue... Yet whether or not it's achieved, Hamas will still be in Gaza/Palestine... will STILL be refusing to recognize Israel's right to exist, firing kassams,...plotting terror.. and will ultimately have to be DIRECTLY CONFRONTED before any meaningful and lasting peace can be achieved. |
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« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 06:41:24 AM by realityman »
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2008, 11:11:45 AM » |
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... WHERE did I say anything of the kind?? playing your cat$mouse games??? I say "Hamas will lose Syria's support", you reply "... AND what happened to those who supported violence against Israel in those countries when peace treaty's were signed?? Yes, that's right... They simply went underground and continued to operate..." do you consider your argument a decent response to mine? While Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria, superb. After losing its major patron, "Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria..."...yea..only "to some degree" and only "in Syria". Weakened not "massively" or "significantly", but only "to some degree". Whereas in Palestine it won't be weakened at all. It's like saying "After losing support of Pakistani government, Taliban will be weakened to some degree in Pakistan". But in Afghanistan it won't be weakened at all. Do you really like playing this phrasal scholastics dodging reality? What I'm dissagreeing with is your implication that somehow peace with Syria will significantly weaken Hamas in Palestine... you may disagree, but you need to back it up. You did not comment on the key quote from the expert Gary Gambill: ""In fact, Syrian sponsorship of Hamas has had an enormous impact on the group's operational capacities."" You clearly consider Syrian sponsorship does not have an "enormous impact", or even a "significant impact" on Hamas' operational capabilities, for the loss thereof will NOT "significantly weaken Hamas in Palestine." Any grounds for such contention? Quotes maybe? At this point you're clearly trying to divert the subject to avoid having to back up your earlier statements:
Quote from: Peisithanatos
Syria is the major factor here, and the Syrian problem, that is, tha Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled
...Syria has little bearance on Hamas' aspirations, but it has vast influence on Hamas' capabilities...
......in that case it's power status will change dramatically... yea, the accusation of "divertions" is really good coming from you. RM, you are the father of changing topics. I just don't deem it necessary to mention that every paragraph. Now, you say I failed to back up my statement that - "it has vast influence on Hamas' capabilities..."Didn't I bring you the Gambill quote that "Syrian sponsorship of Hamas has had an enormous impact on the group's operational capacities."" "vast influence" and " enormous impact".....no? still see no resemblance...still think I "failed" or smth? |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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realityman
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« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2008, 12:30:46 PM » |
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superb. After losing its major patron, "Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria..."...yea..only "to some degree" and only "in Syria". Weakened not "massively" or "significantly", but only "to some degree". Whereas in Palestine it won't be weakened at all. Cat and Mouse?? lol... You keep pretending I'm making certain statements or taking certain positions, and when I EXPOSE THIS, then you accuse me of playing "cat and mouse"?? lol And again... Please show me where I stated or implied that Hamas in Palestine won't be weakened at all... Hint: I never stated anything of the kind... READ my previous posts. I made it very clear. You're, once again, picking and chosing between what you want to see, and what you want to purposely ignor.... So now are you going to divert again from the subject and accuse me of playing "cat and mouse" when you clearly accused me of making a statement I never made?? Have you been consulting with "Moshe"?? I'm starting to wonder... lol you may disagree, but you need to back it up. You did not comment on the key quote from the expert Gary Gambill:
""In fact, Syrian sponsorship of Hamas has had an enormous impact on the group's operational capacities.""
You clearly consider Syrian sponsorship does not have an "enormous impact", or even a "significant impact" on Hamas' operational capabilities, for the loss thereof will NOT "significantly weaken Hamas in Palestine." Any grounds for such contention? Quotes maybe?
At this point you're again getting ridiculous... I've clearly (and on several occasions) backed up my contentions, yet you're clearly ignored what I've stated. SHALL WE TRY AGAIN?? As to your experts opinion as to Syrias impact... CERTAINLY SYRIA CURRENTLY HAS AN IMPORTANT IMPACT... CURRENTLY... YET you apparently want to pretend that support from Syria will somehow magically evaporate if a peace treaty is signed with Syria... IT CERTAINLY WILL NOT. LISTEN CLOSELY NOW... See if you can follow this time... ... YES PEISI... Syria is a significant support entity for Hamas (as well as several other sources)... Should peace be achieve between Israel and Syria (future now Peisi... still following??), Syria's "open" support for Hamas (and the like) will be forced, to at least some degree, into hiding... BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY NOT DISSAPEAR (as you'd apparently like to pretend)... As I clearly stated previously: Certainly peace with Syria would be a positive, assuming Israel's security needs are met... But even you had to admit that should an agreement be reached, Syria certainly wouldn't "zealously go uprooting the uderground structure" (of Hamas)...and, either way, that does nothing to stop the support Hamas receives from it's numerous other sources. Even as an "open" sponsor of Hamas (and the others), they (Syria) STILL have to smuggle resources/funding in and out, as Israel does not obviously allow them (or others who support Hamas) open access... you may disagree, but you need to back it up.. I DID BACK IT UP PEISI, AND CONTINUE TO DO SO... Anyone with reasonable objectivity can easily see that I've clearly made my point... That contrary to what you've stated, Peace with Syria doesn't have to be solved before Palestinian problems can be tacked... And in all likeliness that the "power status" of Hamas in Palestine would not change "dramatically" soly on Peace with Syria... Reference your statements: Syria is the major factor here, and the Syrian problem, that is, tha Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled
......in that case it's power status will change dramatically... And here you go again: "it has vast influence on Hamas' capabilities..."
Didn't I bring you the Gambill quote that
"Syrian sponsorship of Hamas has had an enormous impact on the group's operational capacities.""
"vast influence" and "enormous impact".....no? still see no resemblance...still think I "failed" or smth? So Peisi... What does "Gambill" (your reference) say will happen to Hamas if peace is reached with Israel... That Hamas within Syria will simply dissapear, go away, or maybe evaporate into thin air?? Do you think even he believes that support from Syria and other sources would dry up and go away?? ... While I'm not familiar with your source, I can almost guarantee he's likely never said of the kind. Again, you bring me quotes and opinions as to the current situation, ...YET PURPOSELY IGNORING PRECIDENT and BASIC LOGIC as to what would likely take place should a peace agreement be reached....
As I stated (which you apparently don't want to comprehend): MANY THINGS have downgraded "Hamas' capabilities" over the years... International sanctions, building a wall to keep suicide bombers out, targeting terrorists and terrorist leaders, etc....YET HAMAS CONTINUES ON ...and continue to fire Kassams, plot terror, and refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist...
Should peace be agreed to with Syria, that would be another "downgrade" to Hamas in Palestine, YET "another" is not enough to stop the Kassams, the refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist, or the other forms of terror.... The funds and support would continue to flow from their numerous other sources of support, AS WELL AS support from within Syria (as it does from other Arab/Muslim nations) while certainly deminished to some degree.... THIS, however would certainly not mandate that the Syrian/Golan "has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled"... and certainly wouldn't indicate that the "power status will change dramatically" for Hamas in Palestine due to their wide range of support sources....
Now let me guess, you're going to, once again, ignor basic logic as to what will likely happen should peace be achieved with Syria, and tell me again of Syria's current influence as if that would mostly dissapear when papers are signed?? lol
You're a stubborn one Peisi... but I like ya anyway.
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« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 12:38:04 PM by realityman »
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2008, 01:07:59 PM » |
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Well said, Realityman!  |
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2008, 01:22:41 PM » |
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It will be a hard sell to get the Israeli's to give up the Golan Heights under almost any situation. Sure it is nice to talk about it (as Israel has done), but Syria doesn't have a very good track record with agreements. Even less so, with Iran looking over their shoulder.
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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realityman
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« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2008, 05:04:56 PM » |
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It will be a hard sell to get the Israeli's to give up the Golan Heights under almost any situation. Sure it is nice to talk about it (as Israel has done), but Syria doesn't have a very good track record with agreements. Even less so, with Iran looking over their shoulder.
You're right Terry... Iran has quite a bit of influence over Syria... And one of the fears is that giving up Golan would be indirectly inviting an openly hostile Iran onto Israel's doorstep.. |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2008, 03:06:19 AM » |
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Please show me where I stated or implied that Hamas in Palestine won't be weakened at all... Quit your games. You said “Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria..." Are Hamas' goals in Syria? Is it a Syrian movement? Is Syria the target area of Hamas? Is Hamas vying for power in Syria? Is it recruiting Syrian subjects for terror attacks? Is Hamas torpedoing Syria’s talks with Israel? No. Hamas is a Palestinian group launching attacks from Palestine, partaking in Palestinian elections, and disrupting Palestinian talks with Israel. We’re interested in Hamas’ role in Palestine, not Syria. There is NO logical justification for saying “Hamas will be weakened in Syria…” It’s tantamount to saying “Should Hezbollah lose Iranian backing, it will considerably be weakened in Iran.” Or “After losing factories to the Allied bombings, German forces were weakened in Germany.” (while the war was waged in Russia). Syria is only a support resource, not the battlefield. Without Syrian support Hamas will be weakened. PERIOD. Weakened everywhere. And since we’re interested in Hamas’ ability to cause troubles in Palestine, and between Palestine and Israel, we OBVIOUSLY look at THIS ability. When you so artificially add “…in Syria” after “weakened”, you so obviously and so clumsily seek an exit from the argumentative dead-end. That’s what prompted you to add the totally irrelevant “…in Syria”. IN PALESTINE WILL IT BE WEAKENED, that’s what is relevant. More later, since I have a few spacious quotes, and wish to avoid lengthy posts. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2008, 08:26:10 AM » |
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CERTAINLY SYRIA CURRENTLY HAS AN IMPORTANT IMPACT... CURRENTLY... YET you apparently want to pretend that support from Syria will somehow magically evaporate if a peace treaty is signed with Syria... IT CERTAINLY WILL NOT. Logical fallacy. You vehemently stress “CYRRENTLY” only to announce that this “current” condition will surely persist. Why stress “CURRENTLY” in regard to something that you deem PERMANENT. It’s like “Certainly there CURRENTLY is a building on the corner…CURRENTLY… YET you apparently want to pretend that it will somehow magically evaporate on Tuesday. IT CERTAINLY WILL NOT.” Eh..?? Go figure the logic. CERTAINLY SYRIA CURRENTLY HAS AN IMPORTANT IMPACT... CURRENTLY...
Should peace be achieve between Israel and Syria, Syria's "open" support for Hamas will be forced, to at least some degree, into hiding... BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY NOT DISSAPEAR Logical fallacy. You are contrasting items that belong to different categories. First you vehemently stress the temporality of Syrian role (CURRENTLY…CURRENTLY), then you emphasize the publicity of Syrian role. It’s “PRESENT-FUTURE” VS. “OVERT-COVERT” in your thesis. I think you’re confused with two arguments of yours: 1) Syrian support can be replaced by that of others 2) Syrian support will turn from overt to covert Try taking on them one by one. Should peace be achieve between Israel and Syria, Syria's "open" support for Hamas will be forced, to at least some degree, into hiding... BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY NOT DISSAPEAR That, honorable speaker, is up to you to PROVE. No country in a peace treaty with Israel offers support to Hamas. Since it’s the rule established by Egypt and Jordan, you have to prove that Syria will be an exception from that rule. From Gary Gambill: ""After the kingdom (Jordan) signed a peace treaty with Israel in October 1994 and began forging closer ties with the PA, the Hamas presence in the kingdom increasingly became a liability - particularly after the group began launching suicide bombings in 1994. In June 1995, Jordan cracked down on Hamas activities in the kingdom and expelled Abu Marzouk and Alami, prompting the latter to relocate the group's interior committee in Damascus. From various sources: (CBS/AP) Three top Egyptian officials Wednesday called on Hamas to recognize Israel, disarm and honor past peace … The Egypt-Hamas media mud-slinging intensifies: Egyptian establishment daily Al-Ahram accuses Hamas of coordinating with the Muslim Brotherhood to use force to breach the Palestinian-Egyptian border, killing Egyptian soldiers… Egypt has barred some Hamas leaders, including Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh,… Egypt transferred about 2,000 automatic rifles and two million rounds of ammunition to Abbas’ security organizations this week. The transfer, made with the approval of Israel, is intended to bolster Abbas in his power struggle against the Hamas-led government, the Ha’aretz daily reported… confirmed arms transfers from Egypt and the U.S., the latest American weapons shipments were driven through Israeli checkpoints.. So “”Jordan cracked down on Hamas””, and Egypt zealously supports anti-Hamas forces. Hamas, BTW, is a party of Muslim Brotherhood, and the MB activists do NOT enjoy privileged treatment in Mubarak’s torture chambers. So the burden of proving that Syria will be an exception from the Egypt-Jordan rule, and continue supporting Hamas where Cairo and Amman don’t, is on you. More later |
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realityman
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« Reply #39 on: May 27, 2008, 12:59:19 PM » |
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Please show me where I stated or implied that Hamas in Palestine won't be weakened at all... Quit your games. You said “Hamas will certainly be weakened to some degree in Syria..." Games?? THANK YOU (Now read the quote you just quoted from me, compared to WHAT YOU accused me of stating... then READ it again... Get it yet??)... As to the rest of your "babble" after that (??)... THEN you do it again... As you then again state: ...You vehemently stress “CYRRENTLY” only to announce that this “current” condition will surely persist... Was that not just covered above?? (refer to above quote that YOU quoted from me)... lol  Yet there you go again... seeing what you want to see, ignoring the rest ... is up to you to PROVE. No country in a peace treaty with Israel offers support to Hamas... That's funny... so now it's up to me to "prove", yet it was YOU who made the assertions (assertions you've yet to back up): Syria is the major factor here, and the Syrian problem, that is, tha Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled
.....in that case it's power status will change dramatically... You wouldn't be trying to run away from those assertations...would you?? Peisi... To keep such ridiculous positions, you have to ignor history, and basic logic (which apparently you're becoming experienced at)... WHERE were Hamas leaders prior to being in Syria?? How and why did they go to Syria?? The answer is that they were and have been kicked out of a variety of locations... YOU seem to want to believe that if Syria signs a peace treaty with Israel, that this would s omehow be the end of the line for Hamas and Hamas leaders in Syria... Should Syria seek to oust Hamas leaders, it's LOGICAL to assume (based on history and "neighborhood support" they would find yet another location to operate from... (Iran maybe?? They don't seem to like Israel much)... And as for your ridiculous statement that: ...No country in a peace treaty with Israel offers support to Hamas... Are you now changing/twisting the subject to public/open support away from support coming out of or from certain nations?? Nice try Peisi. As I stated early on in this discussion: ...Simply because Syria agrees to peace..signs a peace deal, and land is given, etc... doesn't mean Syria (or international peacekeepers) will actively go after Hamas in their country, OR that the funding/support coming from Syria will go away... OR that this support channel won't/can't simply move more underground and continue operation which would then only not be "officially" supported or harbored by Syria...
Peace with Syria also does little to stem the flow of "terror funds" from underground charities and organizations support and actively fund Hamas and their terror operations. Weapons are smuggled in from outside sources funded by outside dollars, and Syria has little to do with it.... As I also previously stated: ...Syria is a significant support entity for Hamas (as well as several other sources)... Should peace be achieve between Israel and Syria (future now Peisi... still following??), Syria's "open" support for Hamas (and the like) will be forced, to at least some degree, into hiding... BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY NOT DISSAPEAR (as you'd apparently like to pretend)....... ... Sure, nations with peace treaties don't openly support or fund Hamas (or the others), but organizations within those nations do... and that's one of the points you don't seem to want to recognize. Yes, the ease and amount of funds from a source might be diminished with a peace treaty, but funds and support continue to make their way into the terrorist's hands. Hamas receives support and funding from all over the world.... This included from organizations within ally nations... which include the US and Canada... Again (so maybe it starts to sink in)...The US and Canada don't support Hamas, YET funds still flow from those nations (charities/organizations/foundations) making their way into Hamas' pockets... Yet, to you, somehow this wouldn't happen with Syria after a Syrian peace treaty?? .. Or that somehow this doesn't happen with nations which neighbor Israel, with a history of hatred toward Israel (??)... Ridiculous Maybe you don't know, or just don't want to know about Hamas' support... how it comes to them, how it's collected, transfered, etc... but it seems, to have and try to keep a "position" such as yours, that you don't even know the basics... Hamas IS NOT a stand alone entity... Hamas is a wing of the Moslem Brotherhood... And organization with a wide reach. The Moslem Brotherhood operates in numerous nations... operates and originated in Egypt, operates in Jordan, and has been caught funding Hamas from and through several venues... Hamas has even been caught operating in Jordan, and smuggling many weapons through Egypt under the noses of Egyptian official... NO, the state doesn't openly sponsor it, but YES, it goes on, and is part of the regular flow of support Hamas receives. http://www.nysun.com/national/islamic-groups-named-in-hamas-funding-case/55778http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/12/12/MN187018.DTL&type=printablehttp://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=223942http://www.defense-update.com/2006/05/hamas-activists-weapons-siezed-in.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhoodhttp://www.weaponsurvey.com/kbase/egyptandsmuggling.htmhttp://news.egypt.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=667&Itemid=51You don't seem to want to get it Peisi... Hamas isn't going to go away quietly, no matter how much your ideals may wish it so. This being the case, your assertion that peace somehow has to be reached with Syria BEFORE Palestinian problems can be "tackled"... and that Peace with Syria would magically "dramatically" change Hamas' power status remain willfully naive to the probability of funds continuing to flow from numerous sources (including underground sources in Syria), and a logical relocation of Hamas leadership (possibly to Iran, or under Hezbollah's protection in Lebanon)... You seem dedicated to idealizing "easy fixes"... Peace with Syria magically fixing Hamas, Promises of borders making Hamas' Covenant " irrelevant".... or '67 borders (or some magic line in the sand) bringing peace without dealing with the numerous other issues... But to do so, you seem to consistently have to ignore basic logic, and even the direct words/statements of those on the ground with the violent agendas... Everyone would like an "easy fix"... but the world usually doesn't work that way, and certainly doesn't work that way when it comes this situation. ....So I see what I wanna see http://www.itsallpolitics.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,26/topic,2188.0/And that is apparently true  |
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« Last Edit: May 30, 2008, 04:19:03 AM by realityman »
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2008, 07:52:45 AM » |
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WHAT YOU accused me of stating... where is the accusation? let's me play now by your rules? show me the accusation then. Was that not just covered above?? (refer to above quote that YOU quoted from me no. You still did not elicit your following profundities: CERTAINLY SYRIA CURRENTLY HAS AN IMPORTANT IMPACT... CURRENTLY... YET you apparently want to pretend that support from Syria will somehow magically evaporate if a peace treaty is signed with Syria... IT CERTAINLY WILL NOT. why stress "currently" if this current condition "CERTAINLY WILL NOT" disappear. Why not say "ALWAYS" right away..? "Syria will ALWAYS support Hamas..". smth like that. those assertations...tha Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled you see Hamas as the main obstacle to peace. Right? That obstacle draws its vigor from abroad. Right? Shutting down the foreign supply would weaken the obstacle. Right? Where do u disagree? And yes, i do insist you provide evidence to back up your thesis that Syria will continue supporting Hamas, thus breaking the pattern of Arab nations with a peace deal with ISrael. I mean, i understand the absurdity of requesting evidence of future developments, but i'm only applying your debative tricks to your arguments. Are you now changing/twisting the subject to public/open support away from support coming out of or from certain nations?? Nice try Peisi . glad to deserve praise from the twist master. No buddy, when you say "Syria supports Hamas" or "Nepal supports MTV", we understand that as a reference to the state, official institutions, governmental agencies. You most certainly are purposefully "twisting" support BY a country as support INSIDE a country. If any group operating inside a country would be undesrtood as a REPRESENTATIVE of that country, you'd have to put USA and ISrael on the list of Hamas supporters, because Hamas is known to have some presence in both these nations. nations with peace treaties don't openly support or fund Hamas (or the others), but organizations within those nations do... really? That applies to Israel and the US. You already made a search about the Hamas presence in the US. Now, do you really argue that support from some Islamist cells in the US EQUALS to the support by the US government Do you think groups operating in the US are providing Hamas with about same amount of support that the US government would be able to? So if that's not the case with the US, why would that be the case with Syria/Egypt/Jordan, etc.?? I get back once more to the Gamble statement I quoted: ""Syrian sponsorship of Hamas has had an enormous impact on the group's operational capacities."" Your case here can be helped in two ways: 1) you either refute that Syria is "vastly" important to Hamas, or 2) you convincignly argue that this "vast" source of support can be replaced quick enough to allow Hamas to resist effects of such loss. Good luck. |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2008, 08:08:55 AM » |
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Pisces,
Deception may be your goal, but it certainly is transparent here.
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Its not what they say that bothers me, its what they say that just aint so that does ! - Will Rogers So that we may end the oppression wrought by our own hands.
- Shulman |
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realityman
Full Member
Karma: +26/-10
Posts: 204
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« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2008, 05:50:34 PM » |
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Pisces,
Deception may be your goal, but it certainly is transparent here.
Thank you... Peisi is so deep in it at this point, he's trying desperately to change the subject (by trying to accuse me of stating things I clearly never stated or implied) so he doesn't have to back up his assertions.. His assertions, which defy logic and the NUMEROUS real world examples I presented above... THIS TIME (according to Peisi)... I supposedly said: ...support from some Islamist cells in the US EQUALS to the support by the US government.. LOL... (Which of course I never stated, as he knows only too well)... BUT OF COURSE is little more than an attempt from Peisi to divert me from HIS STATEMENTS..... Peisi... You're ridiculous at this point... Syria is the major factor here, and the Syrian problem, that is, tha Golan problem has to be solved before the numerous Palestinian problems can be tackled
.....in that case it's power status will change dramatically... Like he himself said... ...I'm always against the occupiers... So I see what I wanna see http://www.itsallpolitics.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,26/topic,2188.0/And at this point, I think that says it all. |
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« Last Edit: May 31, 2008, 07:09:01 AM by realityman »
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2008, 04:06:17 PM » |
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Terry revealed: Pisces,
Deception may be your goal, but it certainly is transparent here. Terry, I never understood what pleasure you derived from posting your deluded monotonous one-liners. Even though they never get responses. No offense, dude, I just don't get it. Realityman noted: ...support from some Islamist cells in the US EQUALS to the support by the US government..
LOL... (Which of course I never stated, as he knows only too well You misquoted me. Full quote: Now, do you really argue that support from some Islamist cells in the US EQUALS to the support by the US government It was a question, not an attribution of a statement. Realityman testified: Like he himself said...
Quote from: Peisithanatos
...I'm always against the occupiers... So I see what I wanna see
And at this point, I think that says it all. It says all not only about me. We both see what we want, but only one of the two has honesty to admit |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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