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Author Topic: Religion & Suicide  (Read 295 times)
IamMe
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« on: April 24, 2008, 01:11:50 PM »

OK, before I start let me say that I'm posting this in the spirit of honest inquiry. This is not an attack on religion.

But...

People occasionally say, usually after a suicide, that young people don't realise that death is permanent and hence kill themselves, not realising the implications. This lead me to think: are religious beliefs contributing to suicides?

First of all, I realise that most religions say that suicide is wrong, that only god may take away life; but many people ignore, or do not understand this, and (perhaps) simply believe that after death 1) they will continue to exist 2) that they will go to heaven 3) that they will see their dead friends/parents etc. again.

Like I said, I don't intend this as an attack on religion (it would be pretty low) but, rather, I want to see what others think about this.
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BridgetD
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« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 02:12:29 PM »

This lead me to think: are religious beliefs contributing to suicides?

I grew up thinking I would go to hell if I killed myself, so I'm not the best one to ask.   Wink
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Dormouse
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« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 02:25:33 PM »

Are you aware of Emile Durkheim's famous study on suicide that forms the essential beginning of the academic study of sociology?

One of the findings of that study was that religious people were the least likely to commit suicide.  Admittedly, this study was done in the late 19th century and didn't look at religion outside of the US context.

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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 06:09:46 AM »

OK, before I start let me say that I'm posting this in the spirit of honest inquiry. This is not an attack on religion.

But...

People occasionally say, usually after a suicide, that young people don't realise that death is permanent and hence kill themselves, not realising the implications. This lead me to think: are religious beliefs contributing to suicides?

First of all, I realise that most religions say that suicide is wrong, that only god may take away life; but many people ignore, or do not understand this, and (perhaps) simply believe that after death 1) they will continue to exist 2) that they will go to heaven 3) that they will see their dead friends/parents etc. again.

Like I said, I don't intend this as an attack on religion (it would be pretty low) but, rather, I want to see what others think about this.


In general, I think that most suicides in the west occur because of intense emotional or physical pain.  Generally, I would argue the purpose of suicide is to cease to exist, not start over in an afterlife.

This may not be the case in terminally ill patients or wounded war veterans.  Are you referring to cases like these?
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IamMe
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« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 08:09:11 AM »

Are you aware of Emile Durkheim's famous study on suicide that forms the essential beginning of the academic study of sociology?

One of the findings of that study was that religious people were the least likely to commit suicide.  Admittedly, this study was done in the late 19th century and didn't look at religion outside of the US context.

I was not aware of it. I think that we now have a culture of cherrypicking from religion, however, and people may take the afterlife part but reject the suicide is sin bit. I think this is the danger.
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IamMe
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« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 08:15:05 AM »

OK, before I start let me say that I'm posting this in the spirit of honest inquiry. This is not an attack on religion.

But...

People occasionally say, usually after a suicide, that young people don't realise that death is permanent and hence kill themselves, not realising the implications. This lead me to think: are religious beliefs contributing to suicides?

First of all, I realise that most religions say that suicide is wrong, that only god may take away life; but many people ignore, or do not understand this, and (perhaps) simply believe that after death 1) they will continue to exist 2) that they will go to heaven 3) that they will see their dead friends/parents etc. again.

Like I said, I don't intend this as an attack on religion (it would be pretty low) but, rather, I want to see what others think about this.


In general, I think that most suicides in the west occur because of intense emotional or physical pain.  Generally, I would argue the purpose of suicide is to cease to exist, not start over in an afterlife.

This may not be the case in terminally ill patients or wounded war veterans.  Are you referring to cases like these?

I am referring to suicides in general. I always thought (and we are both kind of speculating) that suicide was seen as a way out of a (seemingly) insumountable problem; if there is an afterlife (especially one of eternal bliss) it may make it seem like an even better way out.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 09:28:38 AM »

I am referring to suicides in general. I always thought (and we are both kind of speculating) that suicide was seen as a way out of a (seemingly) insumountable problem; if there is an afterlife (especially one of eternal bliss) it may make it seem like an even better way out.
I believe that suicide is against Christian doctrine.  Traditionally speaking a suicide was not even allowed to be buried in consecrated Church graveyards.

If this is the case, it should be obvious that suicide, from a Christian perspective, is a ticket to Hell.


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IamMe
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« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 01:08:19 PM »

I am referring to suicides in general. I always thought (and we are both kind of speculating) that suicide was seen as a way out of a (seemingly) insumountable problem; if there is an afterlife (especially one of eternal bliss) it may make it seem like an even better way out.
I believe that suicide is against Christian doctrine.  Traditionally speaking a suicide was not even allowed to be buried in consecrated Church graveyards.

If this is the case, it should be obvious that suicide, from a Christian perspective, is a ticket to Hell.

Yes, I agree. However, the problem is when people kind of believe Christianity but ignore certain parts.
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tadpol
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« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 02:11:27 PM »

Is your question about why there are many religious suicides or a question about why there are not?

Without looking at any facts I'd suggest suicide would be less common among people with emotional supports, and I'd suggest churches can provide those emotional supports. But I'd also suggest a lot of pressure can be built through religion, which I'd think would tend to increase suicide rates. They way I think of it suicide is a social problem, and different churches in the same sect can have very different social dynamics, making it difficult to make meaningful links between beliefs and suicides, or to disprove them.
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IamMe
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« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2008, 02:14:59 PM »

Is your question about why there are many religious suicides or a question about why there are not?

Without looking at any facts I'd suggest suicide would be less common among people with emotional supports, and I'd suggest churches can provide those emotional supports. But I'd also suggest a lot of pressure can be built through religion, which I'd think would tend to increase suicide rates. They way I think of it suicide is a social problem, and different churches in the same sect can have very different social dynamics, making it difficult to make meaningful links between beliefs and suicides, or to disprove them.

Interesting, I hadn't thought of that.
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2008, 10:39:37 PM »

I am referring to suicides in general. I always thought (and we are both kind of speculating) that suicide was seen as a way out of a (seemingly) insumountable problem; if there is an afterlife (especially one of eternal bliss) it may make it seem like an even better way out.
I believe that suicide is against Christian doctrine.  Traditionally speaking a suicide was not even allowed to be buried in consecrated Church graveyards.

If this is the case, it should be obvious that suicide, from a Christian perspective, is a ticket to Hell.



I think that it varies.  Whether this is sinful or not depends a great deal upon the knowledge and accountability of the individual.  Our Heavenly Father doesn't send people to hell for a mental illness they aren't really in control of.
Yes, I agree. However, the problem is when people kind of believe Christianity but ignore certain parts.
I'd say that's true of most religions.  When people choose pieces of different religions to believe a la carte it typically isn't the rigorous parts which lead toward real personal growth.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2008, 03:40:41 PM »

I think that it varies.  Whether this is sinful or not depends a great deal upon the knowledge and accountability of the individual.  Our Heavenly Father doesn't send people to hell for a mental illness they aren't really in control of.
Interesting point.  Do you have some Biblical reference for this?

The Bible certainly supplies ample evidence that 'suicide' is held to be a grave sin.  I can't imagine any Christian to be in doubt of that.
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Wiglaf
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2008, 05:32:12 PM »

I think that it varies.  Whether this is sinful or not depends a great deal upon the knowledge and accountability of the individual.  Our Heavenly Father doesn't send people to hell for a mental illness they aren't really in control of.
Interesting point.  Do you have some Biblical reference for this?

The Bible certainly supplies ample evidence that 'suicide' is held to be a grave sin.  I can't imagine any Christian to be in doubt of that.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

I'm not saying it isn't ordinarily a sin and certainly many have committed it.  What I'm saying is that knowledge is required for an action to be regarded by God as sin.  God knows what they know and whether that knowledge is enough for the person to be justly held responsible for the action.  I would submit that in certain circumstances one who is mentally ill lacks this knowledge.  I won't say how common I think that is because I don't know and I refuse to speculate.
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. . . sometimes it seems that one has to lean into the wind to stand straight.
James Welch Winter in the Blood

Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution,no law, no court can even do much to save it.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2008, 07:19:43 AM »

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
It is the obverse of this that is at issue.  This says that a man who knows better and chooses not, is sinful.

This does not hold that one who 'does not know better' is thus innocent of sin.

Indeed, that very idea flies in the face of fundamental Christian doctrine - that all are born in sin by definition.  Christianity holds that all are born guilty of the original sin.  There is no such thing as being 'innocent' of sin in Christianity (even newborn babies are guilty of it). 

Ergo, it is theologically impossible in Christianity to hold that ignorance makes you free of sin.



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