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Author Topic: Existence of God or Lack Thereof  (Read 384 times)
Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2008, 07:15:12 AM »


It is only a false dichotomy if suffering is good in all the circumstances in which it arises.

Also, the parent analogy doesn't apply, since parents can only make the best of the world they live in, which requires sacrifice, whereas "god" created the world in which suffering is necessary.

I don't think I follow your logic here.  A false dilemma merely demonstrates that they are not mutually exclusive (i.e. there are instances in which they could both occur).  It does not mean that they must match every time.

Did God create a world in which suffering is necessary? Or is he making the best of the world we altered?

What about my other example? How does free will fall into the discussion of all-loving vs. all-powerful?
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“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”

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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 07:39:20 AM »

Iamme already posted some good points. So I will just add to one point.

Wow, people form your church volunteered to go help Hurricane Katrina? Awesome. I don't see how you can call it God's work. I could easily call it doing the right thing in order to avoid hell.

If those within my church claim they desire to do God's will then I will assume they are telling me the truth. 
I see no selfish motive in going to NO.  What else could it be? Rarely do I ever buy that bs hell line btw.  The only time I do is from soldiers or elderly folk on their death beds.

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I know plenty of people who volunteered just because it was the right thing to do. You have volunteer organizations such as the Americorps who did the same thing. Did they need God in order to do that? Absolutely not.

Wonderful! You have identified other instruments that God has used to alleviate suffering.  Here is another can of worms entirely, but what is the 'right' thing to do? Do not expect me to know what you mean by this...

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If God was powerful enough to create the Earth, I'm sure he could of done something for the poor victims of NO.  Of course, you'll just call it warranted suffering because you can't come to terms with the unknown.

He did.  He sent people from my church and from your Americorps. 

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And just to add on. Anyone who needs the Bible or a WWJD bracelet to tell them to be a good person belongs in "hell" to begin with.

Quite right.  In fact, a Christian would argue that we all deserve 'hell' as we are inherently flawed (see my signature below).  As such, it is the 'grace' or 'love' of God that spares us from what we deserve. 
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I think, therefore I am loved

“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”

-Minnesota Crime Commission
IamMe
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« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 01:18:25 PM »


It is only a false dichotomy if suffering is good in all the circumstances in which it arises.

Also, the parent analogy doesn't apply, since parents can only make the best of the world they live in, which requires sacrifice, whereas "god" created the world in which suffering is necessary.

I don't think I follow your logic here.  A false dilemma merely demonstrates that they are not mutually exclusive (i.e. there are instances in which they could both occur).  It does not mean that they must match every time.

The dilemma is between this universe's suffering and an all-loving god. Providing examples of suffering that can be construed as good (with a little mental gymnastics) doesn't make it a false dilemma, since there is still suffering that serves no purpose whatsoever. In this category I would put things like children dying of cancer (something that cannot be blamed on humans, and their pesky free will). If you can make a child dying of cancer into a good thing then I will concede. 

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Did God create a world in which suffering is necessary? Or is he making the best of the world we altered?

What about my other example? How does free will fall into the discussion of all-loving vs. all-powerful?

It is a nice get-out-of-jail card, I'll give you that.
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Totino
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« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2008, 07:31:11 PM »

Your diluted arguments are laughable. You've now insinuated that all volunteer organizations are doing God's will. You may aswell say they are doing Santa's will. There is no proof for either.
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