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Author Topic: Money, and human worth.  (Read 306 times)
Leo
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« on: April 24, 2008, 08:07:40 PM »

OK, I'm having this 'spirited' discussion at another place, and I wonder what ppl here think about it.

I find the concept of one man being paid a 100 times (or more) as much as another for the same hours worked to be unjust. I know that one person might be better educated and/or more skilled than another, so it is reasonable that he be paid more, as his work is more valued by society. I also have nothing against people making a lorry load of money and enjoying it, so there is nothing personal involved. I am just talking about the concept of how much different people are valued by society.

As far as I can make out, most value is based on perception.

Let me use my fave uncle as an example. He is a Queen's Council and a very clever barrister who works three days a week for himself, and the other two days a week he gives pro bono. His fees are not by the hour but effectively average 500 pounds ($US1,000) per hour. If he were to charge all his time five days a week, he would very likely earn a million pounds a year ($US 2,000,000). As it is, he earns slightly more than half that, and he pays about 40% of his income in tax.

He is a man in his mid thirties, who is in good health, who is unmarried, and who does not have mortgages to pay. So he does not need all that money. He has three houses, drives an expensive car, and has a collection of vintage cars. He dresses well and eats well, and frequently travels overseas. He lives a comfortable lifestyle, and to be fair to him, is extremely generous as far as charity is concerned. But he does not need all that money.

I realise that if he, and people in a similar income bracket, did not pay the US equivalent of $400,000 a year in tax, the treasury would be poorer and there would be insufficient funds for things like universal health care, age pensions, education, etc. So there are benefits from having highly capable and highly recompensed people in society.

But irrespective of how clever he is, and how responsible he has been to become a Queen's Council, is his time worth 100 times that of someone who works on the factory floor? Society perceives it to be more valuable to that extent, but is it intrinsically so?. So things such as progressive taxation balance the books to a small degree, as it could be argued that he benefits society more than the man who screws in tail lights on the assembly line.

And to be fair to my uncle, he is a very nice man, (and great fun) and I don't begrudge him a penny, but on the conceptual level, I have doubts whether it is just that he is paid so much money, when an equally hard working factory worker is paid so little.

And as an example, my uncle is small potatoes compared to CEO's and sports stars who are paid 50 million a year (and upwards). I use him as an example because at least he works for his money.

What do the people here think about the issue of some people being paid multi-million dollars, and others barely enough to live on?
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Biker Dude
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« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 04:44:51 AM »

Unfortunately pay isn't about fair.  There are plenty of cases of complete fuck ups getting paid a ton of money, think CEO's who have driven their company into the ground, but still get $$$$.  In the real world, top level executives and management are way over paid, and are completely replaceable.  It's usually the highly skilled worker that can't be easily replaced, but they aren't compensated as such.   Executives and managers are realistically a dime a dozen, but skilled workers are not.  Trouble is that sometimes the group paying the CEO's are either friends, or CEO's of other companies, and they all just pad each others pockets.  And at least in America, lawyers are also a dime a dozen. 
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tadpol
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« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 02:28:59 PM »

I think about earning money as being connected to how much money passes through your hands at work. Like commission, for every so much of company money you handle they pay you more.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 02:43:28 PM »

As Jean Jacques Rousseau noted in his famous essay On the Origin of Inequality, inequality of talent, inequality of ability and inequality of wealth are all quite normal things for the simple reason that humans are not born equal in talent or ability.  This is what Rousseau calls 'natural inequality'.

Rousseau suggests that natural inequality, in itself, does not pose a problem to society, since the natural inequality of wealth is identical to the natural inequality of humans.

Rousseau points out that the only real problem here is the process of inheritance where 'natural inequality' of the one 'highly skilled or talented' passes on the 'accumulated wealth of such inequality' to one who is not 'naturally gifted'. 

This takes 'natural inequality' and institutionalizes it and makes it permanent - thus producing 'unnatural inequality' where those that have no superior talents or skills have all the benefits and advantages of 'natural inequality' (without earning any of them).

Thus, 'inequalities of wealth' such as the example given in the OP are 'natural' and expected.  It only becomes a social problem when that person bequeths his wealth to a family member (creating 'unnatural inequality').
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Gojira
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« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 05:10:38 PM »

Please take an economics class.  It will answer your question.
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IamMe
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 02:04:29 PM »

Leo, you are right, the current system is not fair. A economic class (as Gojira reccomends) will no doubt tell you how the market sets a fair wage for everyone but this is nonsense. Even assuming the market works undistorted (which it doesn't) the mechanism it uses can hardly be described as fair. In short, assuming everyone acts rationally, workers will strive to get the highest wage possible and employers will strive to pay the lowest wage possible. If you have a skill that is plentiful (i.e. if you are working class) then the wage you can demand is low, whereas if your skill is rare then you can command a high wage. Now, even if that system were applied according to theory it is hardly fair. We have no choice about our innate ability, only how we use it. Wages should be paid based on effort and sacrifice, not on innate ability or how many others could do your job. That is the most efficient way to get everyone to maximise their potential. Think about it, if you are, like your uncle, a person with a lot of innate ability there is a lot of incentive for you to work hard, because there is a lot of money to be made; if you are just a labourer, you may as well not bother, since you can't really expect to earn much, no matter how much effort you put in.

One factor that serves to make the situation worse for the working class is globalisation. In the past, labour was relatively mobile compared to capital - if wages were low in an area, workers could go elsewhere where wages were higher; this tended to push wages up. Now, however, the opposite is true: capital is relatively mobile compared to labour: corporations can shop around for the lowest wages, and can easily move their operations elsewhere if wages are too high. This is known as the "race to the bottom".

As Dormouse mentioned, inheritance is one of the things that distorts the market, but really it is a subset of the elite classes looking after their own. Those who are in charge (the middle and upper class) do everything they can to create a situation where their sort of people get higher wages. Thus we the situation where "lower class" workers always get paid less than "upper class" workers, even if the scarcity of the two is the same - based on bogus concepts like prestige.

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mdma
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« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 08:38:39 AM »

Maybe you just all got distorted view on what fair is ?

Your uncle got what any other human could but haven't done that simply because your uncle probably have something others don't. So what fairness you are talking about? Unfair would be having two equal human beings that the one is chosen and other not. Human are unequal, kids and low level communist like 'IamMe' fail to get that but human are not and never will be equal. So celeb would get millions per year and other will need to work their ass whole life without being close to that. You pay money to that celeb, you the one who make those who being "paid unfairly" ( according to you ) paid so. Think what role models we would have if not money and fame? Think how human will progress when we will be equal or even close to each other. Fockin boring life, now wonder Finish kids commit suicides and use heavy drugs. Life becomes fockin boring when you live in "pretty "world.

So the least we can do is shut up when bigger dog goes around otherwise it looks lame.

Listen to wise old man!

I don't know about your uncle but this ain't a first time i hear a story about him, wasn't that the same uncle was supposedly gay because he gave you some nice cash as birthday present? or was it another person? then my mistake.
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Gojira
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« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 05:14:54 PM »

A economic class (as Gojira reccomends) will no doubt tell you how the market sets a fair wage for everyone but this is nonsense.

Like my economics professor said, "Economics has nothing to say about fairness."

But it sure can help explain why people are paid the way they are. 

Now, whether thats fair or not... Roll Eyes
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IamMe
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« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 11:59:30 AM »

low level communist like 'IamMe'

Low level? Perhaps you should look at my avatar more closely.
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