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Author Topic: Before Darwin  (Read 1001 times)
Warr_E_Er
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« on: May 02, 2008, 07:30:33 AM »

It seems to me as if Darwinism really made materialism a possibility.  Prior to natural selection and evolutionary theory, to suggest the non-existence of God would have been silly.  Where else would human life have possibly come from? Or life at all? Thoughts?
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tadpol
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2008, 09:13:07 AM »

As I understand it:

Being unable to explain phenomena is not in itself a good reason to dismiss an ideology.

The rejection of an idea is not dependent on accepting another.

Darwinian action cannot explain life from non-life.



Now my first two don't really work together, but you use positive language for an idea I've come to think of as negative, so I present both.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2008, 10:17:03 AM »

It seems to me as if Darwinism really made materialism a possibility. 
The philosophic school of 'materialism' predates Darwin by a couple of centuries (Locke would be an early example of 'materialist' doctrine).  One could say that materialist ideas have been around since Plato's famous assertion of dualism.

Indeed, all of western philosophy begins with Thales of Miletos (8th century BC) - who famously asserted that the 'world was created in a manner not unlike the silting up of the Nile delta'.  This is the first proposed explanation of the origin of the world that does not include/require the act of a supernatural agent. 

Quote from: Warr_E_Er
Prior to natural selection and evolutionary theory, to suggest the non-existence of God would have been silly.  Where else would human life have possibly come from? Or life at all? Thoughts?
Some would argue that any asertion of the existence of God is silly and always has been - before or after Darwin matters nothing.



« Last Edit: May 02, 2008, 10:19:21 AM by Dormouse » Logged

Patton
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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2008, 11:07:33 AM »

There is no reason a person of faith must reject "evolution".....which is "adaptation"......
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Dormouse
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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2008, 11:12:44 AM »

There is no reason a person of faith must reject "evolution".....which is "adaptation"......
That is correct under the Roman Catholic Christian doctrine, where 'big bang' theory and 'evolution' are both officially compatible with Roman Catholic doctrine under the 'watchmaker anology'.

I'm not aware of any other Christian theology that can accept evolution or big bang.

All Protestants must have a problem with it because of the Protestant insistence of Biblical scripture being the authorative word of God.
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2008, 12:48:12 PM »

It seems to me as if Darwinism really made materialism a possibility.  Prior to natural selection and evolutionary theory, to suggest the non-existence of God would have been silly.  Where else would human life have possibly come from? Or life at all? Thoughts?

It certainly strengthened the case for materialism, but I would say that dualism/theism/that-whole-area was still an irrational position pre-Darwin.
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Factinista
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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2008, 03:10:10 PM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2008, 07:00:06 AM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.


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Factinista
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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 12:03:01 PM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.




so you don't think that the Greeks had aspects of Scientific Rationalism?
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2008, 09:00:09 AM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.

Excellent point.  In the absence of a scientific narrative, how are the origins of life and the universe reasonably accounted for without a God? (BTW: I have been meaning to read Locke and I will after May)

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.

Those idiot Greeks paved the way for scientific rationalism.  Perhaps in 2000 years, scientists (assuming another flavor of the century ideology hasnt taken root) will look back and laugh about our silly assumptions.  Perhaps we are not worth minding. 
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Dormouse
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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2008, 09:04:24 AM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.


so you don't think that the Greeks had aspects of Scientific Rationalism?
Apparently my sarcasm was too subtle.

I was mocking the notion that scientific rationalism begins with Darwin.
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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2008, 10:57:13 AM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.


so you don't think that the Greeks had aspects of Scientific Rationalism?
Apparently my sarcasm was too subtle.

I was mocking the notion that scientific rationalism begins with Darwin.


Fair enough... The point of the OP is that Darwin's ideas provided an alternative explanation for the origins of man.  Without evolution and natural selection, how could an atheist argue against the watchmaker argument?
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I think, therefore I am loved

“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”

-Minnesota Crime Commission
IamMe
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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2008, 12:20:04 PM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.


so you don't think that the Greeks had aspects of Scientific Rationalism?
Apparently my sarcasm was too subtle.

I was mocking the notion that scientific rationalism begins with Darwin.


Fair enough... The point of the OP is that Darwin's ideas provided an alternative explanation for the origins of man.  Without evolution and natural selection, how could an atheist argue against the watchmaker argument?

Chance, spontaneous assembly, some unknown material process, perhaps.
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell

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Warr_E_Er
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« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2008, 07:44:49 PM »

before Scientific rationalism I don't think we could really apply "rationality" as we now define it.
Indeed.  Those ancient Greeks were idiots and not worth paying attention to.


so you don't think that the Greeks had aspects of Scientific Rationalism?
Apparently my sarcasm was too subtle.

I was mocking the notion that scientific rationalism begins with Darwin.


Fair enough... The point of the OP is that Darwin's ideas provided an alternative explanation for the origins of man.  Without evolution and natural selection, how could an atheist argue against the watchmaker argument?

Chance, spontaneous assembly, some unknown material process, perhaps.

Do any of those seem more likely than a God?
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I think, therefore I am loved

“Every baby starts life as a little savage. He is completely selfish and self-centered... If permitted to continue in the self-centered world of infancy, ... every child would grow up a criminal, a thief, a killer, a rapist.”

-Minnesota Crime Commission
Dormouse
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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2008, 05:28:00 AM »

Fair enough... The point of the OP is that Darwin's ideas provided an alternative explanation for the origins of man.  Without evolution and natural selection, how could an atheist argue against the watchmaker argument?
The watchmaker argument was constructed by theists in response to the challenge of the theory of evolution.

Besides, I see no logical or rational reason why any atheist should need or want or bother to argue against the watchmaker argument.  Atheism itself does not require or necessitate that act.

From the perspective of philosophy, the watchmaker argument is nothing more than a restatement of the Genesis theory in that it is asserted entirely as an article of faith.  Atheism essentially just rejects all human-assertions or human-constructions of alleged statements of God's truth.  That is to say, atheism is entirely a negative assertion, it contains no positive content.  One cannot project positive content onto atheism itself. 

For example, the theory of evolution, or theory of natural selection, may be disproven in the future - if this were to occur, this would not directly impact the rational validity of atheism itself.  Atheism is not dependent upon evolutionary theory (they are merely mutually compatible concepts).

Btw, Candide is the name of a novel written by Voltaire in 1759, based on the famous Lisbon earthquake of 1755.  This novel serves as a classic example of 'atheist' type ideas in evidence - a full century before Darwin came along.  One might say that this novel represents the introduction of the idea of atheism into popular consciousness.
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