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Author Topic: Labour party, where are you going?  (Read 807 times)
DIEGO
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« on: May 04, 2008, 07:47:59 AM »

I guess that no one opened a post on UK's local elections.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/05/04/europe/boris.php

As always, I'm a rookie in this issue but it seems that conservatives are well positioned to return to government again after the Blair's years.

Another thing that I want to highlight is the big transfer of seats between Labours and Conservatives "...Labour lost 331 seats over all, and the Conservative opposition gained 256...". In my opinion, pretty impressive.
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Viv.
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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 02:43:48 PM »

It's Labour's worst result for 40 years.  But the Council elections can be a protest, the real election result can be very different.  I know many people who will vote for a party to slap the Government in the local Council election, but change to a different party in the General Election...tactical voters.

Brown has to do something though, the economy is going to hell in a handcart.  The Civil Service is a complete mess because of his reforms, the lowest paid have just been penalised by the scrapping of the 10 pence taxation band and they are livid and back bench MPs are forcing a compensation package into being against Brown's wish, the Oil Refinery strike in Scotland closed down the only refinery which supplies all of Scotland and the North of England, the teachers union has just held a strike which they have not done for 21 years, we already pay the highest fuel tax in Europe but petrol prices are to rise by 14% and it will cost around £80.00 to fill the tank of Ford Focus (which one of my cars happens to be)...it is getting worse and people are really starting to feel it and are getting angrier and angrier.

TBH I think it is out of his control.  There is too much going on simultaneously and I think he cannot handle it.  Where are they going?  Out of office IMO and not soon enough...
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Brother Oz
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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 07:22:34 AM »

Much as it was hoped people would vote on local issues, I don't think they did. The abolition of the 10p rate was a very bad idea, and the main reason that the Tories took so much in the north.
As to the economy, most of its problems are not things that Brown has control over, they're to do with the global credit crunch.
I don't think there's really a great deal of reform that can be done (by either party) to massively improve Britain. But people will blame the government.
And there is always the fatigue factor: people have had Labour for 11 years now, they're tired of them. I think that it's very likely that the Tories will win the next election, unless Brown pulls a John Major. But when Major won in 1992 it's because people thought Labour would screw up the economy. I don't think that people will think the Tories will do that. So at the next election, I predict Cameron will be in.
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Dormouse
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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 07:26:54 AM »

It's Labour's worst result for 40 years.  But the Council elections can be a protest, the real election result can be very different.  I know many people who will vote for a party to slap the Government in the local Council election, but change to a different party in the General Election...tactical voters.

Brown has to do something though, the economy is going to hell in a handcart.  The Civil Service is a complete mess because of his reforms, the lowest paid have just been penalised by the scrapping of the 10 pence taxation band and they are livid and back bench MPs are forcing a compensation package into being against Brown's wish, the Oil Refinery strike in Scotland closed down the only refinery which supplies all of Scotland and the North of England, the teachers union has just held a strike which they have not done for 21 years, we already pay the highest fuel tax in Europe but petrol prices are to rise by 14% and it will cost around £80.00 to fill the tank of Ford Focus (which one of my cars happens to be)...it is getting worse and people are really starting to feel it and are getting angrier and angrier.

TBH I think it is out of his control.  There is too much going on simultaneously and I think he cannot handle it.  Where are they going?  Out of office IMO and not soon enough...
I'll bet that Brownie is going to lose the next election.  Its written all over his dour mug.

Labour was only electable because of Blair.  Take Blair away and the Labour party starts looking like the same old and unelectable dinosaur party that it has always been.

In other words, the Labour party didn't win three elections in a row - Blair did.
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Brother Oz
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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 09:04:09 AM »

You're probably right. Blair was able to present the party in such a way as to make it appealing to everyone. He had the charisma and the PR ability to win elections. Brown doesn't. This does mean that if he wins, it'll be because people like his policies, rather than are captivated by his charisma, a more honest way, but definitely much less likely.
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DIEGO
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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 11:54:04 PM »

Would you mind explaining to me the 10 pence thing?

Thanks in advance
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Brother Oz
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« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2008, 03:07:06 AM »

Okay, when Labour came into power, they (by which I mean Gordon Brown) brought in a 10% tax band, between about £4000 and I think about £17000 income a year. So the poor paid less taxes (before then, that band was at the 20+ rate). I'm not sure about the exact numbers. But anyway, that was the lowest tax band, then above that you paid 22%, up to about £35000 a year, after that you paid 40%. But recently, Gordon Brown lowered the 22% rate to 20% but abolished the 10% rate, so from about £5000 to about £35000 (I think) you pay 20% income tax. So all the low-paid workers pay more tax. Now, he also raised benefits for low-paid parents and others who get income support, and is raising the minimum wage, but if you're a normal, childless, low-paid worker, you're paying a few hundred more pounds of tax a year, maybe a thousand. However, middle-class proffesionals are paying a bit less tax. So to most people, it looked like Gordon Brown was trying to buy middle-class votes at the expense of the working class, by abolishing a policy that he himself brought in 11 years ago. It's a very un-Labour policy. So as you can imagine, many Labour back-benchers, as old socialists and trade unionists, were very unhappy about this. And the Conservatives, who of course present themselves as a low-tax party, have been going around saying to working class people that Brown is raising their taxes. I note that the Tories have said that, if elected, they aren't promising to change the rates back... they wouldn't want to raise middle-class taxes, now would they!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 03:11:14 AM by Brother Oz » Logged
Viv.
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« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2008, 11:58:14 AM »

Well no f*****g wonder people are angry.  Labour are supposed to be the working-class party, with a remit to protect the lowest paid and disadvantaged and they are being seen to misrepresent them. 
I really think Brown is way too interested in the balance sheet, as a hangover from running the Treasury.  He does not seem to have adjusted quickly enough to consider the rest of the picture, he is fixated by economics and losing sight of political spin.
Labour's outlook is so changed, it feels there is now no party representing the ordinary man in the street.
Brown is an astute politician, but he is a miserable big guy and does not have the charm that Blair did.  I still would not write him off though.  I think he is focusing on other areas, but will know he has to pull out the stops pretty soon.
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kactus
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« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2008, 01:25:00 PM »

Well it's probably because Labour has shifted its policies so much to the right under Blair's leadership that there's not much of a distinction between Labour and conservatives. Electing Cameron would just help bring a change and a bit of a fresh air.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 01:29:55 PM by kactus » Logged
Brother Oz
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« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2008, 03:02:41 PM »

That's the thing, at the end of the day, Labour could always say to the poor, "yeah, we may not be perfect, but we will at least try and help you, unlike the Tories." With the abolition of the 10p rate, working class people may suddenly decide that actually, the Tories would not be worse for them. This will seriously affect Labour's core vote, the urban working class, hence why they lost so much to the Tories in the North of England in the council elections, and in London.
The problem is, Brown keeps increasing things like Child Benefit, but that doesn't grab people's attention as much as a tax hike. So even if they end up with the same amount of money, they may not realise.
I think he really was aiming to buy middle class votes though. And that was a bad decision, predicated on the assumption that he could rely on working class votes as given. Yet we've seen in recent years, as Labour have moved right, that's become less reliable. Hence the rise of the BNP, for example (who now have a seat on the London Assembly), who aim at working class people. There is no longer a clear, working class party, so Labour cannot take working class votes for granted. They need to work for them.
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neorealist
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« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2008, 06:17:06 PM »

Thanks for the English Polysci 101 course Oz Smiley
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DIEGO
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« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2008, 11:29:17 PM »

Okay, when Labour came into power, they (by which I mean Gordon Brown) brought in a 10% tax band, between about £4000 and I think about £17000 income a year. So the poor paid less taxes (before then, that band was at the 20+ rate). I'm not sure about the exact numbers. But anyway, that was the lowest tax band, then above that you paid 22%, up to about £35000 a year, after that you paid 40%. But recently, Gordon Brown lowered the 22% rate to 20% but abolished the 10% rate, so from about £5000 to about £35000 (I think) you pay 20% income tax. So all the low-paid workers pay more tax. Now, he also raised benefits for low-paid parents and others who get income support, and is raising the minimum wage, but if you're a normal, childless, low-paid worker, you're paying a few hundred more pounds of tax a year, maybe a thousand. However, middle-class proffesionals are paying a bit less tax. So to most people, it looked like Gordon Brown was trying to buy middle-class votes at the expense of the working class, by abolishing a policy that he himself brought in 11 years ago. It's a very un-Labour policy. So as you can imagine, many Labour back-benchers, as old socialists and trade unionists, were very unhappy about this. And the Conservatives, who of course present themselves as a low-tax party, have been going around saying to working class people that Brown is raising their taxes. I note that the Tories have said that, if elected, they aren't promising to change the rates back... they wouldn't want to raise middle-class taxes, now would they!

Thanks for your explanation. I guess that UK's next elections will take place in 2009, so I found this tax reform a risky one. But, truly, do you think that Brown can make such a reform without thinking about the next elections? In my opinion there are two ways of analyze the reform:

First, UK's economy needs that reform and that will leave the economy in 2009 in a better place that without doing that reform.
Second, Brown "takes" for granted working class people votes (hoping that they would forgot this issue next year or giving it less importance than now) and decides to fight for middle class people votes.

Anyway, I think that conservatives are working everywhere to develop tax systems with a single band or the minimum possible, and unfortunately, I think that left parties are helping them to achieve that goal.   
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Viv.
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« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2008, 01:09:35 PM »

Thanks for the English Polysci 101 course Oz Smiley

He's very good isn't he.  Even if I don't always see it his way, I still want him.










for my own forum...of course...what did you think I meant....

Gordon Brown is a worker.  Does not enjoy delegating, he is a workaholic. 

IMO he is working his way through his master plan and has a million things balanced simultaneously.  He is interested in getting through those and serving the country. 

Spin is not his priority at this time IMO.
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kactus
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« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2008, 01:41:13 PM »

Thanks for the English Polysci 101 course Oz Smiley
Spin is not his priority at this time IMO.


What? New Labour and no spin? You gotta be kidding! I kinda agree that atleast Brown is not as much a spin doctor as Blair and his cabinet were. I guess he is just unlucky when he inherited an economy with all kinds of problems when Blair stepped aside. Glasgow bombing, credit crunch, etc, etc, etc... . That coupled with his lack of charisma and leadership is only adding to his unpopularity. Boris Johnson became London on the premise that a lot of disgruntled labour supporters had enough of Livingstone and his policies. I see the same happening with Labour in the next general election. Watch this space...
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 01:43:35 PM by kactus » Logged
Viv.
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« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2008, 02:34:14 PM »


What? New Labour and no spin? You gotta be kidding! I kinda agree that atleast Brown is not as much a spin doctor as Blair and his cabinet were. I guess he is just unlucky when he inherited an economy with all kinds of problems when Blair stepped aside. Glasgow bombing, credit crunch, etc, etc, etc... . That coupled with his lack of charisma and leadership is only adding to his unpopularity. Boris Johnson became London on the premise that a lot of disgruntled labour supporters had enough of Livingstone and his policies. I see the same happening with Labour in the next general election. Watch this space...

He is not like Blair and he knows it.  He is relying on his work to sway voters, which it will not the way things are going.  But I think he will make more of an effort closer to the time when he needs to and that is what I am waiting to see.  Despite lacking charisma, he is capable and hugely experienced and will have some idea of how to go about things.  It will be very interesting to observe how he approaches it.  Assuming that he has not completely lost control of his situation already...lol...and is still master of his fate.

He did not inherit an economy...he was overseeing the economy all along from his post as Chancellor.  He is not responsible for the world crisis, but could be held to account for the UK economy as no one but himself has had power over it since Blair came into power.

Boris Johnson, aka that mouthy nutcase, will take over from Ken Livingstone.  But Livingstone was hardly in favour with the Labour Party...he's been an outsider and regarded as a loose canon with them many times.
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