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Author Topic: It always was about oil  (Read 1521 times)
Fredledingue
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« Reply #45 on: September 28, 2007, 11:24:46 AM »

Cryptomaniac,

The reason that the Iraq Occupation has not yet brought down the price of oil is because the oil is not yet flooding the market, nor is it officially under control of western oil firms.  But the US is trying to make that all change with a bill (written in US) that if passed through Iraqi Parliament will essentially grant US and Euro oil firms exclusive rights to Iraqi Oil for the next 35 years.  Opposition to this plan is one of the main factors fueling the insurgency.

I posted the complete document on IAP several months ago, but no one seemed to find it important.  Which I find amusing now that they are still trying to decide whether oil was a motivating factor in going to war.

I suggest you google the "Iraqi Hydrocarbon Law" and spent a good while reading.

Huxley,
This law is about sharing resources and proceeds among iraqis not about giving oil away to us firms.
Without foriegn investments, oil cannot be extracted and refined in big quantity or in an economical way and iraqi won't have much revenues to shares. Even Venezuela which nationalized oil interrests still rely largely on foreign companies for drilling, shipping, selling etc.

+The bill has not be written in the US. It's still not written yet and ther reason is that Iraqis lawmakers are still trying to write it during the rare times when they leave their kalashnikovs at the cloakroom.
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« Reply #46 on: September 28, 2007, 11:30:12 AM »

Cryptomaniac,

The reason that the Iraq Occupation has not yet brought down the price of oil is because the oil is not yet flooding the market, nor is it officially under control of western oil firms.  But the US is trying to make that all change with a bill (written in US) that if passed through Iraqi Parliament will essentially grant US and Euro oil firms exclusive rights to Iraqi Oil for the next 35 years.  Opposition to this plan is one of the main factors fueling the insurgency.

I posted the complete document on IAP several months ago, but no one seemed to find it important.  Which I find amusing now that they are still trying to decide whether oil was a motivating factor in going to war.

I suggest you google the "Iraqi Hydrocarbon Law" and spent a good while reading.

Huxley,
This law is about sharing resources and proceeds among iraqis not about giving oil away to us firms.
Without foriegn investments, oil cannot be extracted and refined in big quantity or in an economical way and iraqi won't have much revenues to shares. Even Venezuela which nationalized oil interrests still rely largely on foreign companies for drilling, shipping, selling etc.

+The bill has not be written in the US. It's still not written yet and ther reason is that Iraqis lawmakers are still trying to write it during the rare times when they leave their kalashnikovs at the cloakroom.


Thanks for clarification Fred!  Rebuttal Huxley?
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« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2007, 11:48:24 AM »

I'm not saying the US didn't have a agenda for oil, but the law in itself has nothing to do with US oil companies.
However, if passed it will offer a framework for investing very large summs of money in the oil industry in Iraq. So far such investment are rate "high risk" because of the civil unrest. And it's true that most of it is due to the lack of such law or agreement among iraqi tribes.

The day this law pass, Iraqi will terminate their "4000 years old tribal warfare" [sic: Therry]. Hopefully one day they will understand that sharing resources and be alive, healthy and whealthy is better than to be dead or poor.
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« Reply #48 on: September 28, 2007, 12:22:02 PM »

Even Alexander The Great said in his own prophesy that it would come down to the East against the West. Add to that 4,000+ years of Tribal Warfare including the 12 Tribes of Israel and you have a Mid-East that never will see peace.


Terry
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« Reply #49 on: September 28, 2007, 06:32:18 PM »

Fred,

I'm not sure what about my post you are arguing with.  I don't believe I said anything unfactual.  Of course Western foreign investors can pump the oil out faster. Did I ever question that?  But they certianly don't "have" to have Western foreign companies however, Iraq did incredibly fine pumping oil without the US before the invasion.

Yes it is true that the law will loosley unify the Iraqi state in term of oil revenue sharing among the population.  However, the goal of the US corporations has still been achieved, and that in undisturbed access to invest in Iraqi oil fields.  The law states that the Iraqi Government cannot give favor to non-foreign oil companies and thus will swing the door wide open for Shell, BP, Conoco-Phillips, Exxon-Mobile, etc.  You claim this law has nothing to do with US companies and then in the very next sentence you type this, "however, if passed it will offer a framework for investing very large summs of money in the oil industry in Iraq."  Can to explain that one?  Seems like the US Companies will think those "large sums of money" have a lot to do with them.

War is about Money, and the new Gold is Oil.




As far as where the bill was originally drafted, I'm only going on what I have read in several publications.  For example:

"The legislation was brokered by the financially embattled BearingPoint corporation in McLean, Virginia, and The Independent further reported that as much as $117,000 was donated to both Bush campaigns, in addition to other contributions to several ranking Republicans on the House defense appropriations subcommittee. BearingPoint's Iraq contract from your federal government? $240 million, according to The Independent".
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/unsolved-mystery-the-ira_b_39280.html


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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #50 on: September 29, 2007, 09:40:37 AM »

Even Alexander The Great said in his own prophesy that it would come down to the East against the West. Add to that 4,000+ years of Tribal Warfare including the 12 Tribes of Israel and you have a Mid-East that never will see peace.


Terry


With or without Oil, the Mid-East would still foment. Take a moment and THINK about that!  Wink




Respects all
Terry


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« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2007, 10:09:24 AM »

Huxley,

The law does not favor US companies, it only forbid to favor non foreign ones. There is a sizable difference.
I don't think the americans have the power or the influence to completely forbid other countries from investing in Iraqi oil and have exclusive rights. I don't even think they want that.
However the current Iraqi governement will favor US firms because it's a guarentee for them to stay at the power. If the americans don't have huge interrests in Iraq, they will leave Iraqis alone with their "4000 years old tribal warfare" and tell Maliki "Have a nice day!".

Amercians have liberated Iraq from Saddam. I'm not saying they were right or had the right to do so and stuffs, but that specific event, taken isolately, was a huge potential benefit for Iraq. It was a liberation similar to the liberation of Europe from the nazy 60 years ago, except that local populations reacted differently afterward and didn't profit from this oportunity.
The americans have lost nearly 4000 men trying to stabilize this country.

It's normal that US firms be unoficialy favored. But that won't be written in any law in Iraq.



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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2007, 11:00:12 AM »

Huxley,

The law does not favor US companies, it only forbid to favor non foreign ones. There is a sizable difference.
I don't think the americans have the power or the influence to completely forbid other countries from investing in Iraqi oil and have exclusive rights. I don't even think they want that.
However the current Iraqi governement will favor US firms because it's a guarentee for them to stay at the power. If the americans don't have huge interrests in Iraq, they will leave Iraqis alone with their "4000 years old tribal warfare" and tell Maliki "Have a nice day!".

Amercians have liberated Iraq from Saddam. I'm not saying they were right or had the right to do so and stuffs, but that specific event, taken isolately, was a huge potential benefit for Iraq. It was a liberation similar to the liberation of Europe from the nazy 60 years ago, except that local populations reacted differently afterward and didn't profit from this oportunity.
The americans have lost nearly 4000 men trying to stabilize this country.

It's normal that US firms be unoficialy favored. But that won't be written in any law in Iraq.







Exactly and spot on Fred mate. That's how I view it although I hope for a rapid troop drawdown too.  Undecided


Warmest regards
Terry


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« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2007, 12:50:53 PM »

Huxley,

The law does not favor US companies, it only forbid to favor non foreign ones. There is a sizable difference.
I don't think the americans have the power or the influence to completely forbid other countries from investing in Iraqi oil and have exclusive rights. I don't even think they want that.
However the current Iraqi governement will favor US firms because it's a guarentee for them to stay at the power. If the americans don't have huge interrests in Iraq, they will leave Iraqis alone with their "4000 years old tribal warfare" and tell Maliki "Have a nice day!".

Amercians have liberated Iraq from Saddam. I'm not saying they were right or had the right to do so and stuffs, but that specific event, taken isolately, was a huge potential benefit for Iraq. It was a liberation similar to the liberation of Europe from the nazy 60 years ago, except that local populations reacted differently afterward and didn't profit from this oportunity.
The americans have lost nearly 4000 men trying to stabilize this country.

It's normal that US firms be unoficialy favored. But that won't be written in any law in Iraq."




-------------------------------------------

Fred,

I'm beginning to think you just like to argue.  Look back at what I wrote about the law not favoring Iraqi companies.  You basically just reworded what I said and tried to use it in contrast.  Interesting.

Also I never said that no other companies but US would be allowed.  If you'll read more closely I only refered to "foreign companies" and "Western Companies", and even then I didn't say it would be just them.  My point is that now foreign companies (US included) will have virtually unrestricted access to bid on Iraqi oil projects.  This is a complete reverse of policy under Saddam in which Only the Iraqi government could produce the oil.

Then immediately after you claim that the law will not favor US companies you write this, "However the current Iraqi governement will favor US firms because it's a guarentee for them to stay at the power."  WTF?  These continual contradictions make your posts difficult to understand or appreciate.

Please note that my entire point regarding this bill was in response to a question of "why is not Iraq pumping out oil if that was a reason for war?"  I have clearly answered that question, it is because the big Western Foreign oil companies are not officially making contracts which brings the investments necessary to pump huge amounts of oil out to the market.  When this law gets passed, you will see exactly that scenario take place.  Which was one of the overall goals of the invasion, to get Western Oil Firm in Iraq.

You might be interested in gaining some perspective on how different this proposed oil law will be compared to other nations of the Middle East.  I think you will clearly identify that is not the same as traditional national oil policies of the Middle East.  This of course has been a very touchy and important subject in the region since the early 20th Century and is especially notable since 1953.  For over 30 years now every Mid East country has had a strict Nationalized oil industry.

One of the most troubling aspects of the draft bill is that of the Iraqi Federal Oil and Gas Council, which will oversee the entire industry and grant the contracts.  In the proposed bill there is the possibility that foreign oil companies will be allowed to also be on the Council.


"The draft recommends 15 to 20 year contracts to develop Iraqi oil fields, including production sharing contracts. It states the contracts could be extended by five years if the government found it necessary in order to achieve better technical and financial returns. "

"An Iraqi oil ministry official told Dow Jones Newswires Wednesday the new law proposes allowing - for the first time - local and international companies to carry out oil exploration in Iraq.

During the rule of ousted president Saddam Hussein exploration activities used to be carried out by the government only, he said"
http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=38840


"...an equally important decision is being made inside of Iraq—the future of Iraq’s oil. A new Iraqi law proposes to open the country’s currently nationalized oil system to foreign corporate control."

"The new oil law gives foreign corporations access to almost every sector of Iraq’s oil and natural gas industry. This includes service contracts on existing fields that are already being developed and that are managed and operated by the Iraqi National Oil Company (INOC). For fields that have already been discovered, but not yet developed, the proposed law stipulates that INOC will have to be a partner on these contracts. But for as-yet-undiscovered fields, neither INOC nor private Iraqi companies receive preference in new exploration and development. Foreign companies have full access to these contracts."

"The exploration and production contracts give firms exclusive control of fields for up to 35 years including contracts that guarantee profits for 25-years. A foreign company, if hired, is not required to partner with an Iraqi company or reinvest any of its money in the Iraqi economy. It’s not obligated to hire Iraqi workers train Iraqi workers, or transfer technology."

"The law establishes a new Iraqi Federal Oil and Gas Council with ultimate decision-making authority over the types of contracts that will be employed. This Council will include, among others, “executive managers of from important related petroleum companies.” Thus, it is possible that foreign oil company executives could sit on the Council. It would be unprecedented for a sovereign country to have, for instance, an executive of ExxonMobil on the board of its key oil and gas decision-making body."

"The law also does not appear to restrict foreign corporate executives from making decisions on their own contracts. Nor does there appear to be a “quorum” requirement. Thus, if only five members of the Federal Oil and Gas Council met—one from ExxonMobil, Shell, ChevronTexaco, and two Iraqis—the foreign company representatives would apparently be permitted to approve contacts for themselves."
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/02/27/who_will_control_iraqs_oil.php

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« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2007, 10:15:19 AM »

As we seem to agree on the main aspect opf the oil law, I'll not argue.

However I don't think it was the "ultimate" goal of the war. That sort of a booty the US oil companies are taking, but the real goal is more political and geostrategic than simply allow contracts to US oil firms.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2007, 10:26:49 AM »

.


As we seem to agree on the main aspect opf the oil law, I'll not argue.

However I don't think it was the "ultimate" goal of the war. That sort of a booty the US oil companies are taking, but the real goal is more political and geostrategic than simply allow contracts to US oil firms.



Exactly, and anytime the U.S. and the Mid-East are mentioned together, all raving lunatics use that as an open season for Wah!


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« Reply #56 on: October 02, 2007, 03:51:48 PM »

Well of course it isn't completely about oil, no war was ever fought over just one reason.  I believe the other main goal was to partition Iraq which they are currently also attempting to do.
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« Reply #57 on: October 02, 2007, 09:32:16 PM »

Quote
Well of course it isn't completely about oil, no war was ever fought over just one reason.  I believe the other main goal was to partition Iraq which they are currently also attempting to do.

There's also the paradox that anything that's completely unconnected to oil would subsequently become at least in part, about the oil. If a level 5 hurricane came in and wiped out a lot of supply the news wouldnt be so much about the human cost but rather the international cost.

One thing I think is sometimes forgotten is that in a hypothetical oil 'crunch' where everyone would suffer economically, it's not the rich western countries that would feel the brunt but rather all the very poor or the very volatile regions, from Africa to India to Korea.


Ahk
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2007, 09:51:08 PM »

.


Well of course it isn't completely about oil, no war was ever fought over just one reason.  I believe the other main goal was to partition Iraq which they are currently also attempting to do.



The U.S. Senate passing that resolution counts for jack in the Mid-East.  Wink
My credentials? I worked in the U.S. longer than you have been alive.


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« Last Edit: October 02, 2007, 09:54:35 PM by Terry Mathis » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2007, 10:49:33 PM »

Quote
Well of course it isn't completely about oil, no war was ever fought over just one reason.  I believe the other main goal was to partition Iraq which they are currently also attempting to do.

You do know the difference b/t a federalism and a partition right?

You do know what the proposal stated right?

There's also the paradox that anything that's completely unconnected to oil would subsequently become at least in part, about the oil. If a level 5 hurricane came in and wiped out a lot of supply the news wouldnt be so much about the human cost but rather the international cost.

One thing I think is sometimes forgotten is that in a hypothetical oil 'crunch' where everyone would suffer economically, it's not the rich western countries that would feel the brunt but rather all the very poor or the very volatile regions, from Africa to India to Korea.


Ahk
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