Patton
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"Battle is an orgy of disorder"
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2008, 03:07:42 AM » |
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Would give Israel formalized defense warranties from the US. Israel needs no help defending against what you have described, therefore the treaty would be irrelevant. |
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I do not measure a mans success by how high he climbs but how high he bounces when he hits bottom.
-G.S. Patton, Jr.
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realityman
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2008, 12:27:42 PM » |
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I was talking about a sequence of steps that would increase peace incentives and decrease conflict incentives. Would make nationbuilding more attractive than rocket firing. Would let the steam out of the refugee camps. Would undermine Hamas both internally and externally. Would give Israel formalized defense warranties from the US. Building peace is a long laborious thing, - a very SYNERGETIC thing where one component activates, enhances other components.
You sound like a politician... talking in broad generalities, without really saying anything of substance... Talking of "ideals", while providing nothing of "real world" substance to back up such contentions...You're dreaming again... with no foundation to back up your dreams... "Increase peace incentives".. make "nationbuilding more attractive than rocket firing"... lol ... I again refer you to the Covenant of Hamas, which calls for the destruction of Israel as a goal... A Covenant which denounces any Muslim nation who makes peace with Israel (clearly calling out Egypt at that point in time)... A Covenant detailing goals and an agenda which you apparently want to ignore, or pretend will all magically change because YOU say so or because Hamas members will suddenly change their attitudes.... So you stick to your Hamas Covenant and won't see how various initiatives can make this Covenant irrelevant... And WHAT "initiatives" would those be?? Exactly WHAT "initiatives" are going to make members of an organization dedicated to Israel's destruction... dedicated to Israel never having legitimacy in their eyes, all of a sudden change their stripes?? ... You're making it up as you go along.. WHAT evidence has Hamas given that these magical "initiatives" of yours would do anything to change their agenda?? The answer is nothing... Their reaction to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza speaks far louder than any unsubstantiated theories you might WANT TO believe... You just WANT it to be, and simultaneously want to ignore the daily evidence they (Hamas) give you to the contrary. I asked you: And when Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the others continue to fire Kassam rockets and attempt suicide bombing attacks... WHAT THEN?? ... And your answer was basically that they'd be "held responsible"... lol... Peisi... the more you drift into your fantasy world of "what you WANT it to be", the more you seem to lose touch with the reality on the ground... Fatah/Abbas can agree to peace terms... and assuming it doesn't include Israel's elimination, Hamas will ultimately find excuses to continue the violence, launch Kassams, and plot terror against Israel...Hamas, as a group, makes no secret of WHO they are, WHAT they want, and HOW they seek to achieve it... SOMEONE will ulimately have to target them and their leaders in a decisive manor... This is a reality that apparently YOU don't want to recognize.... You seem to want to pretend that peace treaties with this or that group... or certain borders concessions, etc.. will make Hamas pack up and go away... or magically change their agenda so that they blend in with the magically peaceful rest of Palestinian society... Again... you're dreaming. |
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« Last Edit: May 14, 2008, 12:55:22 PM by realityman »
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2008, 03:48:55 PM » |
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without really saying anything of substance... having brushed aside a number of my ideas in a fairly apologetic (regarding the occupation) way, you now accuse me of saying nough of substance. aha I again refer you to the Covenant of Hamas either you're being perpetually insincere, or there is a machine automatically sending same spam in response to anything. I am speaking about making the Covenant irrelevant wheareas there would be no entity interested in trying to enforce it/ I was speaking about creating a new reality where incentives to go one way would be much stronger than incentives to go the other way, where the destruction agenda would be udermined both internally and externally, where radicals would turn into spoilers disrupting normal existence of THEIR OWN people, and be suppressed by THEIR OWN people. Totally different map of interests and possibilities. And you come back with the Hamas Covenant again, like it's a self-fulfilling prophesy, like this piece of paper is a self-sustainable force programmed towards certain end and acting independently of any human being and any social reality. In several years of debating with you, I heard only mechanistic scholastic dismissals of initiatives. Looking damn similar to Likudnik arguments why Israel shouldn't return the land. I'm losing interest in that. I might be interested to see a "road map" you might have, but not a scholastic exercise about "Why ISrael is right to continue occupation". |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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realityman
Full Member
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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2008, 04:25:22 PM » |
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you now accuse me of saying nough of substance. aha I also stated: You sound like a politician... talking in broad generalities, without really saying anything of substance... Talking of "ideals", while providing nothing of "real world" substance to back up such contentions.... I directly asked you: Exactly WHAT "initiatives" are going to make members of an organization dedicated to Israel's destruction... dedicated to Israel never having legitimacy in their eyes, all of a sudden change their stripes?? I also previously asked you: And when Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the others continue to fire Kassam rockets and attempt suicide bombing attacks... WHAT THEN?? ... And your answer was basically that they'd be "held responsible" "Increase peace incentives"(your words).. make "nationbuilding more attractive than rocket firing".(your words).. lol ... I again refer you to the Covenant of Hamas, which calls for the destruction of Israel as a goal... A Covenant which denounces any Muslim nation who makes peace with Israel (clearly calling out Egypt at that point in time)... A Covenant detailing goals and an agenda which you apparently want to ignore, or pretend will all magically change because YOU say so or because Hamas members will suddenly change their attitudes... ...where radicals would turn into spoilers disrupting normal existence of THEIR OWN people, and be suppressed by THEIR OWN people That's been the HOPE all along.. But the Palestinians have yet to step up to the plate or show any meaningful signs of desiring to do so anytime soon... AND TO THE CONTRARY, IT WAS THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE who elected HAMAS into power knowing their agenda and violent history... (but of course, you'd blame this on Israel for not giving them everything they want.. It's always Israel's fault, right Peisi??) I was speaking about creating a new reality ....
Why am I hearing science fiction music in the background??  |
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« Last Edit: May 15, 2008, 05:50:00 PM by realityman »
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2008, 06:51:54 PM » |
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Exactly WHAT "initiatives" are going to make members of an organization dedicated to Israel's destruction... dedicated to Israel never having legitimacy in their eyes, all of a sudden change their stripes?? inability to prolong same behaviour. Loss of external motivators for such actions. It's known that the hardline comes from Damascus much more than from Gaza. It's basics. Anyone with any bit of interest in the issue knows about the dissention between the more compromise-minded Gaza wing and the radical Damascus wing of Hamas. Syria defines Hamas' behaviour much more than the Covenant does. Syria's exit from the game means not only loss of capabilities, but loss of incentives as well. Basics. Why am I hearing science fiction music in the background?? new realities are created daily, you're missing so much not realizing that. And you ignored my suggestion to bring out constructive proposals. Why is it I never get the air of constructivity from you, only scholastic tricks aimed at excusing the occupation? |
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2008, 08:34:11 AM » |
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Why not a US/Israeli attack treaty. I'd sign that!
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realityman
Full Member
Karma: +26/-9
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« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2008, 02:38:35 PM » |
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Exactly WHAT "initiatives" are going to make members of an organization dedicated to Israel's destruction... dedicated to Israel never having legitimacy in their eyes, all of a sudden change their stripes?? ...It's known that the hardline comes from Damascus much more than from Gaza. It's basics..... dissention between the more compromise-minded Gaza wing and the radical Damascus wing of Hamas. Then maybe you'd like to elaborate these "basics" Peisi... on the "more compromise-minded Hamas" in Gaza... The Hamas that really wants to stop the terror and accept Israel's right to exist while the "hardliners" in Damascus don't allow them too... lol How many organizations have YOU voluntarily joined who's BASIC AGENDA you don't agree with?? (After all, isn't that why someone... ANYONE would join an organization in the first place??). Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.
Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.'
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.'
Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act.'
So I anxiously await your quotes, documentation, and/or common sense evidence which would lead someone to believe that the "compromise-minded Gaza wing" (your words) wants to compromise and commit "high treason" against their Covenant.... new realities are created daily, you're missing so much not realizing that... Have I ever stated that?? You're making things up again to avoid the specifics... Or is your latest "fix" to everything a peace settlement with Syria?? lol http://www.itsallpolitics.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,26/topic,2130.15/The world changes daily... even every instant actually... Understanding that change happens, is far different than prognosticating what will actually happen without reasonable justification and historical evidence pointing to that likely result... Because YOU want something to be, doesn't make it so. ...tricks aimed at excusing the occupation? There you go again... Yes, I"m sure Israel just LOVES policing a violent society such as the Palestinians... And when they pull back, giving the Palestinians an opportunity to prove they could live as a peaceful neighbors, what did they receive Peisi?? (But of course, you'd like to ignor that actions on the ground preferring to prognosticate how they WILL ACT in the future, if given this and that... It'll all be different then... lol SURE PEISI... |
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« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 03:15:07 PM by realityman »
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2008, 04:55:04 PM » |
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Anyone with any bit of interest in the issue knows about the dissention between the more compromise-minded Gaza wing and the radical Damascus wing of Hamas. Syria defines Hamas' behaviour much more than the Covenant does. Syria's exit from the game means not only loss of capabilities, but loss of incentives as well. Basics. Do not confuse Hamas with a minority terror group anymore. The United States wasn't the only constituency that voted total morons to legislative majorities. Hamas received more votes and attained more seats than Fatah in their 2006 elections, there's a big hole in the front of your 'radical Damascus Wing' of Hamas theory there. They happen to have majority support and their behavior since anything but compromise minded. Please. new realities are created daily, you're missing so much not realizing that. Pot meet kettle |
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2008, 08:28:44 AM » |
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Few quotes that i don't reference to avoid the furious spam cop of the forum
From Council on Foreign relations:
""Most day-to-day decisions within Hamas are made by its political bureau, which has eight to 10 members who mainly live in exile in Syria...The political bureau in Syria draws its strength from being Hamas’ main fundraising arm. With internal Hamas leaders cut off from the outside world, they are dependent on the exiled leaders to raise money.
And those external leaders tend to be the most hard-line: They do not want a settlement with Israel, and they insist on refusing to recognize the Jewish state. Those leaders, living in comfortable exile, can afford to be uncompromising. They don’t answer to any Palestinian constituency, and they don’t live among average Palestinians.
Before the Hamas takeover of Gaza, the West had a chance to engage with several internal Hamas leaders who were more open to dialogue than the exiled leadership. Those leaders include Ismael Haniyeh, the deposed Palestinian prime minister. Since the mid-1990s, Haniyeh served as a liaison between Hamas and Fatah in Gaza. There are other pragmatic Hamas leaders who were receptive to dialogue: Nasser Shaer, the former deputy prime minister and a professor of Islamic law, and Abdel-Aziz Dweik, speaker of the Palestinian parliament and a geography professor from the West Bank.
Hamas’ foreign protectors encourage its exiled leaders to maintain their hard-line positions. The Syrian regime has allowed leaders of Hamas and other Palestinian groups that reject peace with Israel to operate from Damascus for two decades. In turn, Hamas’ election victory bolstered Syrian President Bashar Assad in his own confrontation with the United States.""
From Fox News:
""Hamas often puts forward conflicting messages, partially because of differences of opinion between the Gaza leaders, the powerful military wing and the supreme leadership based in Syria...Mashaal said Hamas would accept a peace deal with Israel, provided it is approved in a referendum of all Palestinians""
more in the next post, to avoid big tracts of texts
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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Ahkenaten
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See you real soon!
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« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2008, 09:03:43 AM » |
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P.: If the spam cop is giving you grief try posting your replies without any links then go in and edit and put the links back in (assuming it's important enough  ). That should work. Ahk |
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Poppa was a rolling stone...
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Peisithanatos
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« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2008, 10:05:46 AM » |
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going further
From strategic assessments:
""Hamas Organizational Discord
Tensions and disagreements surrounding the shaping of the Palestinian agenda and control of the Palestinian Authority's centers of power have also surfaced within Hamas. Friction has emerged between the "outside" leadership of the movement, led by Hamas political leader Khaled Masha'al and his deputy Dr. Musa Abu Marzuk on the one hand, and the movement's "inside" leadership, whose most prominent representatives are Ismail Haniyeh and Mahmoud al-Zahar. The al-Aqsa intifada accentuated the differences between these two camps. The high price in human and economic resources that the Palestinian population had to pay, coupled with Israel's assassination of the senior leaders of the movement's domestic leadership, softened the local Hamas worldview and moderated its positions regarding the PA's relations with Israel. It is here one should look in order to understand why it was Hamas's internal leadership, not its external leadership, that supported the ceasefire agreement (hudna) and thereafter the "calm" (tahdiya).
With regard to key political issues related to recognizing Israel and complying with agreements between the PLO and Israel, the divisions between "external" and "internal" have been blurred, especially since the electoral victory. Masha'al and al-Zahar have supported more uncompromising positions than Abu Marzuk and Haniyeh. An interview with al-Zahar on al-Arabiya television on March 18, 2006 reflected the hard-line opinion: "If Hamas joins the government, it will do so on the basis of its economic, social, and political program, ...A more conciliatory tone could be detected in the words of Abu Marzuk in an interview published in the Washington Post on January 31, 2006. Abu Marzuk suggested that Hamas might be able to co-exist with Israel, on the condition that Israel surrender its aspirations of domination and that the United States agree to play the role of a fair and impartial mediator between the two parties.
...According to this approach, Hamas is an object with predetermined strategic priorities, firm political positions, and ultimate anti-Israeli goals. Its behavior, therefore, depends neither on Israeli positions nor on Israel's relations with Hamas...This approach perceives Hamas as an uncompromising body that is focused rigidly on ultimate goals and is willing to bring its politics to absurd extremes to achieve them. It is what breathes life into the perception that future Hamas actions are premeditated and thus predetermined, stemming purely from promulgated movement ideology.
A more realistic thesis will view Hamas as a movement that is operating within an ever changing historical context, aware of practical constraints, sensitive to its surroundings, attentive to circumstances, and subject to considerations of cost effectiveness. According to this approach, it is likely that internal, regional, and international pressures will lead Hamas to demonstrate a thought process that is more network-oriented than goal-focused, to display more political pragmatism than religious extremism, and to distance itself from its radical image in order to facilitate a strategy of intellectual openness. ''
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a big pile of bs covered with a thick layer of sugar
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2008, 10:20:07 AM » |
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Fact is, Fatah has become the negotiating entity in Gaza as well with Palestine proper. Hamas having been in several armed conflicts with Arafat's previous organization already. The US properly supports Abbas and open elections that took criticism as Hamas was elected majority rule. It's not a terrorist organization anymore, it's a full blown political party with the same goals and hate for Israel.
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machioveli
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« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2008, 10:56:41 AM » |
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That's because when you do not kill or murder people to get your point across people listen and will help you. Fatah found that out the hard way and are paying the price as Hamas has turned on them. Truth is people have been calling Israel the aggressor because it is supported by the US. But Israel is willing and is showing that it is willing to live in peace with a Palestian state. Question is would a Palestian state allow Israel to live in peace? This shows who the real aggressors are.
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2008, 10:57:26 AM » |
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A more realistic thesis will view Hamas as a movement that is operating within an ever changing historical context, aware of practical constraints, sensitive to its surroundings, attentive to circumstances, and subject to considerations of cost effectiveness. According to this approach, it is likely that... etc etc It would be very nice if this these was confirmed by fact. So far everything the Hamas has done (from firing rockets over the border to attacking the onlyfuel terminal to Gaza - You realy need to be crazy to do such a thing, don't you?) infirmed this thesis. Hanas has to first stop firing Qassams, not that they don't have the right to "defend themselves" but because it's a total absurdity. Then we may start viewing this group as relatively normal poeple. |
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 Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)  |
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realityman
Full Member
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« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2008, 12:46:41 PM » |
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Few quotes that i don't reference to avoid the furious spam cop of the forum
From Council on Foreign relations:
""Most day-to-day decisions within Hamas are made by its political bureau, which has eight to 10 members who mainly live in exile in Syria...
And quotes/opinions (as you've posted) are fine... but I didn't read/see any of them stating how Hamas in Palestine was showing any willingness to accept Israel's right to exist or agree to permenant borders with Israel as opposed to ontop of them... ...Hamas (inside of Palestine)... more " open to dialog"... " A more conciliatory tone"... In other words, you have nothing of substance to to show Hamas within Palestine desiring to accept Israel's existance and accept permenant peace with Israel...WHAT WE DO HAVE in place of these quotes/opinions are direct quotes from Hamas leaders (outside and inside of Palestine) definitely confirming their refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist and to fight/jihad on. From your quoted source: ...Friction has emerged between the "outside" leadership of the movement, led by Hamas political leader Khaled Masha'al and his deputy Dr. Musa Abu Marzuk on the one hand, and the movement's "inside" leadership, whose most prominent representatives are Ismail Haniyeh and Mahmoud al-Zahar.... Haniyeh and Zahar... the "movement's "inside" leadership.. have both openly refused to recognize Israel.... They both make no secret of this in numerous quotes... But I suppose you (Peisi) can show us quotes from these "inside" leaders to the contrary?? DIDN'T THINK SO. So here we are again... your "wishful thinking" versus the realities on the ground. I asked you (to which you didn't answer): ...How many organizations have YOU voluntarily joined who's BASIC AGENDA you don't agree with?? (After all, isn't that why someone... ANYONE would join an organization in the first place?? ... People don't generally join organizations to drastically change their agendas... they join them BECAUSE OF THEIR AGENDAS... because they generally support those agendas... I asked you to elaborate on the "more compromise-minded Hamas" in Gaza... The Hamas that really wants to stop the terror and accept Israel's right to exist while the "hardliners" in Damascus don't allow them too...... And you bring the opinions of "open to dialog"... "A more conciliatory tone" , etc... I don't think even you would consider such opinions/evidence as meaningful in showing Hamas inside of Palestine as being significantly different... According to their Covenant: "...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason" ... And you've presented nothing to lead one to believe that Hamas (inside or outside of Palestine) was prepared to commit this "high treason" against the ideals of their own organization. |
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