machioveli wrote:

""when you do not kill or murder people to get your point across people listen and will help you.""

what a blissful speech on the grave of those you were never rewarded for being meek. Better say smth about the rewards that come after death.


sweet and touching like child's smile. Yea yea yea, I know, Israel indeed showed acceptance of the two-state solution (at least, when governed by the Left). The question is where the border between the two states will be. Some kids grow up and learn that the world is so different from what they thought, in particular, they learn about those legions of peace initiatives that broke over the border issue.

Realityman wrote



how do you expect an established member of a political party, on which he had made his life and career stake, to openly challange his superiors? Especially in an autocratic "bossy" culture... Especially if he's paid by those superiors? Does that happen a lot in even democratic countries?



if the only thing you're interested is quotes and documents, i have little to offer. I don't have quotes of Hamas offering recognition. Are we cooperating in researching reality or waging public relations wars on behalf of entities? Do you have quotes of any politician publicly proclaming his power-thirst and money-grabbing motivations for seeking office? Are we to assume that absense of such confessions indicates sterile altruistic reasons? Do you automatically take for granted the annunciations about the desire to serve the nation and make a difference in lives of millions and blah blah?? Do you always take rhetoric as reflection of true motives? Can you envisage that Hamas have other motivations besides fulfilling their Covenant? Why does it seem impossible that the cost/profit calculus and power-balance might lead Hamas in a different direction?


since you don't take this argument from me, listen to what Matthew  Levitt says in "Hamas from Cradle to Grave":

""Hamas aid buys the support of those who benefit from the group's largesse. Sheikh Ahmad Yasin himself proudly noted, "We don't go looking for people, they come to us." Citing one of the many examples of people won over by Hamas financial support, Yasin talked of a family of ten living in one room: "We gave them 1,200 shekels ($300). Sometimes it's a sack of flour, or at very least the taxi fare home" from visiting Yasin.[24] As the mother of ten children and a recipient of Hamas aid told a reporter, "All we know is they [Hamas] are the ones who bring us food."[25]

In the words of an Israeli defense official, "In the territories, there are no free lunches: those who receive help from the Islamic associations pay with support for Hamas."[26] Recipients of such aid know better than to ask questions when asked for a favor by Hamas da‘wa activists. Palestinians dependent on Hamas charity allow their homes to serve as safe houses for Hamas fugitives moving from place to place to avoid capture. They assist Hamas by ferrying fugitives, acting as couriers of funds or weapons, storing and maintaining explosives, and more. Hamas employs unsuspecting Palestinians to unknowingly launder and transfer funds on behalf of the group.[27]""

ready more on the topic in the article.

So no, people don't act as ideologically programmed zombies. Once again, the all-known causes of Hamas popularity: 1) Failure of Fatah to deliver statehood; 2)Extraagant corruptedness of Fatah; 3)Large social aid programs run by Hamas.  These are the causes responsible for attracting the bulk of supporters.

if we were in 1989 and talking about the possibility of disintegration of the USSR, and I'd be saying "there are grounds to believe that groups of top officials in the autonomous republics may consider declaring secession and independence", I guess you'd demand "quotes" and "documents". Well, it was pretty hard for dudes from the Party to come out and say "Know what...? I think all this red stuff with Communism and the USSR thing ain't working really good...so it's cool to break away and declare independence...and seek membership in NATO/..." I am presently a member of a political party in Ukraine, and i know that, with all the intra-party dissentions, no senior party member will openly challenge the existing party directives. Party's views may change, and are changing, but corresponding announcements won't be made by lower-level officials who have no fundraising power. And even if they disagree and plan on breaking away, public declarations won't follow until decisive stages. It's all about cost/benefit and balance of power IN and OUT of the party, and possiblities for a maneuvre. My thesis is that if the Damascus-based hardcore wing loses its edge, and an ACCEPTABLE deal with Israel is within reach, Hamas members and even more so Hamas supporters will change the course. If you're uninterested in researching Realpolitik undeclared currents, sorry for wasting your time.

... except Israel will find it hard for conditions to withdraw to the 1967 lines. 

LOL... And the Palestinian people elected Hamas... Didn't they??

As soon as the "Palestinians" you're referring to take power/control... THEN you can talk about what's acceptable to those "Palestinians"... Until then, we'll just have to listen to their elected leadership... which hold the power, control, and happens to fire almost daily rockets at Israeli civilians.. But you can keep "wanting" it to be different if that makes you happy.

And as I said, the Ku Klux Klan may someday have Black and Jewish members... But there's no substantive evidence of this change  being likely to take place anytime in the near future...

When you have evidence of Hamas being willing to accept Israel's existance, WITHOUT TERMS which would ultimately mean it's destruction, I'd be anxious, AND VERY HAPPY to see them.