IAP Political Forum
August 30, 2008, 06:44:28 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length
News: Default theme has been changed, and everyone reset due to some problems with posts disappearing after submitting.
 
   Home   Blog Forum   Help Search Chat Login Register  
Digg This!
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Now! Donation for earthquake in Sichuan  (Read 1622 times)
Jericoacoara
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +60/-9
Posts: 781


Fortaleza IAP 1.0


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2008, 01:49:00 PM »

Is a country's political ideology or history relevant though when deciding whether to donate or not?

I just have the thinking that people are people.Innocent victims of earthquakes shouldn't be discriminated against because of their government. I would like to think that if I were caught in an earthquake or natural disaster, then people around the world would want to lend a hand to help.

I think it is more of an exercise of goodwill than political evaulation but maybe I am being too oversimplistic.

For me, the major deterrant for donating to a cause would be that the money does not go the victims it is meant to help, and is instead wasted on corruption or worse used to prop up brutal dictatorships who could not give a toss about the people they govern. This is the reason why I would not donate to Burma.
Logged

The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
AUGUSTUSQ
Newbie
*

Karma: +0/-9
Posts: 12


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2008, 09:57:26 PM »

Thank you all who decided to donate.
I personally consider it's time to put away ideology difference, since we donate to the victims, instead of the government.
Regarding the government, I think Chinese people have more say than people from other countries.
They know well if the government is good.

I am a very ordinary Chinese citizen in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia. I simply work in a private company.
The moderator may know my location from my IP. Wink

Some say many Chinese people would rather go to the U. S. than stay in China. That's true because  in their mind they can earn more money in the U. S.  Similarly, many American companies would rather build more branches in China than in the U. S. It's very normal people want to earn more money.

Some say China's pollution is considerable. Yes, it's true. Do you think only China has a pollution problem? No, in fact, it's a common problem that all modern countries are facing. Say.

Any way, pollution and ideology are never the reason not to help common victims in disaster...
That's my opion. Thanks again.   
Logged
Stephen Hero
Full Member
***

Karma: +29/-83
Posts: 186



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2008, 06:28:33 AM »

Thank you all who decided to donate.
I personally consider it's time to put away ideology difference, since we donate to the victims, instead of the government.
Regarding the government, I think Chinese people have more say than people from other countries.
They know well if the government is good.

I am a very ordinary Chinese citizen in Chifeng, Inner Mongolia. I simply work in a private company.
The moderator may know my location from my IP. Wink

Some say many Chinese people would rather go to the U. S. than stay in China. That's true because  in their mind they can earn more money in the U. S.  Similarly, many American companies would rather build more branches in China than in the U. S. It's very normal people want to earn more money.

Some say China's pollution is considerable. Yes, it's true. Do you think only China has a pollution problem? No, in fact, it's a common problem that all modern countries are facing. Say.

Any way, pollution and ideology are never the reason not to help common victims in disaster...
That's my opion. Thanks again.   

Again, international donors should never donate via wiretransfer to any Chinese government entity, CCTV, or the Chinese Red Cross.  Your donation is going straight to the pockets of the Chinese dictators.  If you want to donate, then donate to a local branch of your Red Cross, with instructions on how to use the money.  That way you can have at least some confidence that your donation will reach the people intended rather than line the pockets of Communist dictators.

And I'm very confident that Americans will, once again, be the most generous people on earth.  Whether it's the tsunami, the Burma cyclone, or the Chinese earthquake - it'll be the Americans doing the lion's share of international relief.
Logged

Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
Fredledingue
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +29/-29
Posts: 803



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2008, 10:18:47 AM »

One thing that is absolutely sure is that you will not want to donate money on a bank account number (or a link to) found on an internet message board, even if it's posted by a known user.

Donate is a good gesture but it should be made through the brick-and-mortar office of a wellknown organisation like the red cross etc.
Not on an webpage.

Now the problem with China is that they work like crazy for the maximum production at the lowest cost possible without having a safety net to cushion for disasters, crashes and unforeseen events.
Not only in China but this example is typical.

I'm sorry to the Chinese to say that, but everything they produce will just hold for of few uses then will fall into pieces in a pathetic manner. It seems all their country is like that: It works well until it get broke.
I don't want to blame the victims. I'm very sad for these innocent poeple who certainly did their best all their live. The problem is not them. The problem is how industrial chinese production is done, materialy.
If dams are cracking, it's not because workers were lazy, it 's because the directors of the project decided to save money by building something thiner with cheap cement and less iron, the goal being the production of X mW, not to do something earth quake proof.
That's just one example.
Logged

Dr. Zoidberg is jewish (and an important AIPAC donator!)

AUGUSTUSQ
Newbie
*

Karma: +0/-9
Posts: 12


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2008, 06:12:31 PM »

i offer the source link, and CCTV is a formal offical television website.
Amazingly, you are clever and never get your work broke.
But your predjudice shoud be changed. Easy predjudice reveals a man's bad education. 
If you like to donate, you can also donate to the International Red Cross to help the victims.
If you do not like to donate, do as you are pleased.

Logged
Stephen Hero
Full Member
***

Karma: +29/-83
Posts: 186



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2008, 12:32:53 AM »

CCTV is just a mouthpiece for the dictators.  Like the old Soviet TASS "news" service, or the Soviet newspaper Pravda.  There's no reason any reasonable person outside China should believe a word of anything posted at a "CCTV" website.

Like I said, if you want to make a donation, great.  Give it to your local Red Cross.  Never under any circumstance send money directly to China, unless you feel like financing President Hu's wifes expensive jewelry purchases.

All donors should take precautions against fraud and scams.
Logged

Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
Stephen Hero
Full Member
***

Karma: +29/-83
Posts: 186



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2008, 12:45:00 AM »

I'm sorry to the Chinese to say that, but everything they produce will just hold for of few uses then will fall into pieces in a pathetic manner. It seems all their country is like that: It works well until it get broke.
I don't want to blame the victims. I'm very sad for these innocent poeple who certainly did their best all their live. The problem is not them. The problem is how industrial chinese production is done, materialy.
If dams are cracking, it's not because workers were lazy, it 's because the directors of the project decided to save money by building something thiner with cheap cement and less iron, the goal being the production of X mW, not to do something earth quake proof.
That's just one example.


This is exactly right.

The death toll, unfortunately, is exacerbated to poor construction and shoddy building practices.

Source:  http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_9261984?source=most_emailed

Quote
The escalating death toll from the powerful 7.9 magnitude earthquake that ravaged central China on Monday is the greatest loss of life from natural causes in more than three decades in the country, according to numerous accounts.

But it wasn't ground motion, structural engineers point out, but buckling walls, ceilings and floors that killed virtually all the estimated 15,000 victims in the region, with thousands more still trapped under rubble.

"The root cause is a natural disaster," said Mark Ketchum, a structural engineer with OPAC Consulting Engineers in San Francisco. "But it's not the ground shaking that's killing people. It's collapsing buildings."

As the death toll continues to soar from the earthquake that violently rocked China's Sichuan province, the scale of the devastation is raising questions about the quality of government oversight of China's recent construction boom, and its inspection practices over the past decades.

"This building is just a piece of junk," one newly homeless resident of Dujiangyan yelled Wednesday, her body quivering with rage. Her family salvaged clothing and mementos from their wrecked apartment, built when their older home was razed 10 years ago.

After four days of viewing news images from the stricken region, structural engineers around the Bay Area expressed dismay at the extraordinary toll on human life from the failure of buildings that were built either under outdated construction

This is pretty typical of China.  Shoddy construction, low quality.  Think of all the recent export problems.  The toy recalls.   The clothing recalls.  The medicine recalls.  The Chinese were putting poison into pet food for heaven's sake.  The article continues:

Quote
"A 7.9 earthquake will cause some loss of life, but it doesn't have to trap 900 children in a school or kill (thousands of) people. We can prepare better than that," said Dan Shapiro, a San Francisco structural engineer and a member of the California Seismic Safety Commission from 1995 to 2007.

And this is the point.  All those images of children trapped, tragic as they are, that is the result of poor planning, poor codes, poor inspections and poor construction.  Another bang-up job by the Communist dictators!

Quote
Shapiro said K-12 schools in California, along with community colleges, would remain standing even after an equally powerful earthquake.
In 1933, the state passed the landmark Field Act, which established the strictest seismic safety standards nationwide for public school construction.

"I don't envision anything like that happening in California today," he said.

American schools would remain standing.  The poorly built Chinese schools collapse, killing potentially thousands of children.

The Communist dictators fail again.  But of course no Chinese people are free to complain or demand better.  Those kind of protests will get you imprisoned if you're lucky - executed if you're not so lucky.




Logged

Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
adamwon
Newbie
*

Karma: +0/-0
Posts: 1


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2008, 05:47:20 AM »

Is a country's political ideology or history relevant though when deciding whether to donate or not?

I just have the thinking that people are people.Innocent victims of earthquakes shouldn't be discriminated against because of their government. I would like to think that if I were caught in an earthquake or natural disaster, then people around the world would want to lend a hand to help.

I think it is more of an exercise of goodwill than political evaulation but maybe I am being too oversimplistic.

For me, the major deterrant for donating to a cause would be that the money does not go the victims it is meant to help, and is instead wasted on corruption or worse used to prop up brutal dictatorships who could not give a toss about the people they govern. This is the reason why I would not donate to Burma.


simply , if you think you have no money , you could speak out directly , we won't discriminate you on this ISSUE.

Logged
pengy
Newbie
*

Karma: +1/-7
Posts: 42



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2008, 07:59:04 AM »

You can try to rationalize your government's brutal, totalitarian practices all you want.  You still fail.

Well, if you didn't even bother trying to read my post, there's no point in even arguing this.

I am British.  I am from the UK.  The Chinese government is not my government.

I am from 'ackney, in London, UK.  There are plenty of things that I miss about it.

On the other hand, there are plenty of things I will also miss about China.

I know I will miss going outside in the warm evenings and seeing old people dancing in the street.  That's fantastic.  Both my grandmas never leave the house.

I will miss hospitality the likes of which I have never, ever met in 'what are you looking at, you ****?' Britain.
Logged
pengy
Newbie
*

Karma: +1/-7
Posts: 42



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2008, 08:04:34 AM »

I get nervous when those defending Communist regimes use phrases like:

-It does have its negatives, but.......

-About political freedoms - this is true.....

-You just have to be clever about the way you do it......

-they just do it subtly.....

Goebbels would be proud.


And please enlighten me, once again, in which way China is 'communist'?

I had a mate who lived in Yugoslavia in the early 80s.  The way he described that, that is what I always think of when someone says 'communist': shops with completely empty shelves, bar two jars of jam, and suchlike.

China is nothing like that.

People in China are seeing their standard of living increasing at a rate which is completely unprecedented in modern history.

My wife is from a very poor area of rural Hubei.  When she was a kid, she had to live off a spoon of sugar a day, as that was all her parents could afford.  Now, people eat bloody well, far better than most people in the UK do

*pats stomach*

Seriously, all most people in Britain can afford to eat is like a pitiful bowl of cereal in the morning, then some crappy sandwich for lunch, then some wanky microwave meal or something in the evening. 

People in China eat seriously well.  We're going back to blighty for a couple of years so I can do a bit more study.  But my wife is seriously worried about the cost of food, compared with China.

And if you think I'm anything like Goebbels, you're a fucking twunt.

I just don't think any of you are representing China at all fairly.

It is an aesthetically ugly place.

That isn't the point though.

It's also very impressive as developing countries go, and the level of interference for the average Chinese citizen, by the state, is pretty much zero, by my observations.
Logged
pengy
Newbie
*

Karma: +1/-7
Posts: 42



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2008, 08:07:54 AM »

By the way, the poor building standards are nothing whatsoever to do with 'communism'.  In fact, they are more to do with the fact that the central government finds it hard to control all the remote regions.  This is true with many of the negative stories about China (e.g. "Land grabs", which are in fact illegal).  Hence the fact that many of the building developers are now being tried for this.
Logged
Stephen Hero
Full Member
***

Karma: +29/-83
Posts: 186



View Profile
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2008, 08:10:47 AM »

You can try to rationalize your government's brutal, totalitarian practices all you want.  You still fail.

Well, if you didn't even bother trying to read my post, there's no point in even arguing this.

I am British.  I am from the UK.  The Chinese government is not my government.

Irrelevant - apologists for dictatorships and totalitarian regimes sound the same wherever they come from.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2008, 08:18:19 AM by Stephen Hero » Logged

Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
pengy
Newbie
*

Karma: +1/-7
Posts: 42



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2008, 08:14:45 AM »

It's not irrelevant.  Still, given that you seem to be unable to recognise nuance or subtlety, this debate isn't even worth having.

You are every bit the equivalent of the Chinese students chanting the chinese national anthem and thinking everything is absolutely peachy with their country.  You cannot see the world in anything but black and white.

There's really no use in even discussing this with you.
Logged
Stephen Hero
Full Member
***

Karma: +29/-83
Posts: 186



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2008, 08:23:57 AM »

By the way, the poor building standards are nothing whatsoever to do with 'communism'.  In fact, they are more to do with the fact that the central government finds it hard to control all the remote regions.  This is true with many of the negative stories about China (e.g. "Land grabs", which are in fact illegal).  Hence the fact that many of the building developers are now being tried for this.

Apologies.  It has everything to do with the dictators.  The people are not free to set their own standards.  The people in Sichuan CANNOT get together and establish local building codes.  They cannot tell their own government how to build a school.  They have NO voice in determining where dams go.  They have absolutely NO recourse if they are forced to send their child (I was going to say children -- but Chinese forced abortions solve that problem, don't they?) to a slip-shod school made of toothpicks all because the Chinese government doesn't want to spend money to build quality buildings. 

Who can hold them accountable?  To whom will the Chinese government report now that their buildings have caused the deaths of thousands of schoolchildren.

No one.  Because thuggish Communist dictators don't answer to anyone. 
Logged

Never let us do wrong, because our opponents did so. Let us, rather, by doing right, show them what they ought to have done, and establish a rule the dictates of reason and conscience, rather than of the angry passions.
Patton
Global Moderator
Hero Member
*****

Karma: +97/-126
Posts: 1,536


NObama '08


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2008, 08:28:38 AM »

They have absolutely NO recourse if they are forced to send their child (I was going to say children -- but Chinese forced abortions solve that problem, don't they?) to a slip-shod school made of toothpicks all because the Chinese government doesn't want to spend money to build quality buildings.

Of course, many folks lost their "only governmentally allocated" child in that rubble......
Logged

“Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go.”

No 2nd Pelosi/Reid/Obama Congress
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.4 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines LLC
Joomla Bridge by JoomlaHacks.com
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.092 seconds with 25 queries.