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Author Topic: Bush finds his testicles.. albeit a little to late...  (Read 1127 times)
CharlesMartel
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« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2008, 03:39:19 PM »

It hasn't worked and will never work. Iraq proves that.

What hasn't worked...that Iraq proves?
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freethinker
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« Reply #46 on: May 22, 2008, 08:43:03 AM »

 The more appropriate question with the much shorter answer is, what has worked??
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #47 on: May 22, 2008, 08:47:35 AM »

The more appropriate question with the much shorter answer is, what has worked??

How much to cross yer lil bridge? And I thought French trolls were taller.....what's up?
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freethinker
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« Reply #48 on: May 22, 2008, 08:56:04 AM »

 What in Bushes foriegn policy has worked?  How are we safer or how are our relations with other countries any better because of Bushes preferences to stonewalling or invasion, as opposed to diplomatic relations?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2008, 08:59:54 AM by freethinker » Logged

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Patton
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« Reply #49 on: May 22, 2008, 11:54:52 AM »

When was the last time the US was attacked?
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« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2008, 01:29:50 PM »

When was the last time the US was attacked?

... not this argument again?

Seriously, what does that prove? If the number of attacks on American soil is inversely related to the success of your foreign policy, than Bill Clinton was actually BETTER then George Bush.

Basically, it's disingenuous to say, "Bush is doing alright cause we haven't been attacked again". It intentionally ignores everything else like the increased ability to hurt US troops abroad and the increased anti-American sentiment that has grown since OIF started.
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #51 on: May 22, 2008, 03:53:34 PM »

Seriously, what does that prove?

I'll agree with you there, it doesn't prove anything. However, another attack on our soil and to Bush's opponents, it would suddenly prove everything. Patton simply knows how to play the game here, the fact is....reality verifies that we have not been attacked. Bush does get credit for that reality as he'd get criticism should we experience the other shoe dropping.

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It intentionally ignores everything else like the increased ability to hurt US troops abroad

Like that is a factor? We went after Japanese and increased their ability to attack us. We invaded France and Germany opening up huge swaths thru Nazis often dropping men far behind enemy lines. The Feds marched right at the Rebs. Abraxas, we happen to be in a two front war! Your argument that we increase our chances of being attacked...is quite painfully obvious. The risk of getting hurt........leaps expotentially and no I ain't gonna check for spelling. In absolutely every single conflict in human history one cannot be in the right or wrong, on offense or defense, and not increase their enemy's ability to harm. That argument is in itself disingenuous and needs to find the round file cabinet.

I could Imagine Roosevelt or Lincoln making any decisions on war and General Abraxas weighing in..."Mr. President you do realize this increases the chances our men and women in all likelihood will have their abilities to get hurt...increase?"

"Yes well.....thank you General Abraxas...what say you let the President and Congress decide this one, your keen awareness of the painfully obvious is seond to none...Sir."

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and the increased anti-American sentiment that has grown since OIF started.

How do you know that? The statements made in here like they're facts or just assumed......are abhorrent.  What are you talking about?

Sheer hatred coming out of the Afghan wars and onto the international scene as far as al-Qaeda is concerned. Pissed because of three reasons. We ain't believers and thus cannot be trusted not to wage war on them. Our presence in their spheres. Our continued support for Israel. This new war in Iraq now their central front... and a fourth rail whereupon they are getting their arses collectively whooped.

We've had Tony Blair in Britain followed by Brown, a much more conservative and more in line with Bush French President Sarkozy, John Howard from Austrailia was always a staunch ally, Germany's Merkel. You have some hate meter that measures this?

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freethinker
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« Reply #52 on: May 22, 2008, 04:44:12 PM »

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and the increased anti-American sentiment that has grown since OIF started.

How do you know that? The statements made in here like they're facts or just assumed......are abhorrent.  What are you talking about?


That crazy left wing rag "Forbes" Doesn't assume the facts they back it up with evidence:
 Anti-American Sentiment Grows Worldwide

European and world views of the United States and President George Bush have dramatically worsened since 2000; the trend has intensified since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. There has been a decline in perceptions of the United States throughout the European Union, including in such traditional U.S. allies as the United Kingdom and Poland, and in Muslim and Latin American countries, according to annual polls undertaken by the German Marshall Fund of the United States, the Pew Research Center and the BBC World Service.

--Whereas most people in the world have a positive view of the E.U., U.S. influence is in noticeable decline, even among formerly staunch allies.

--Divergent views within the E.U. on U.S. policy have their roots in the 1980s East-West split in Europe on the respective threat from Soviet and U.S. military power.

--Contemporary anti-Americanism derives largely -- but not entirely -- from President George Bush's Iraq policy.

--It has waxed and waned before and is likely to subside again, in parallel with changes in the Washington administration and its foreign policy.

In a March 2007 survey of 28,000 people in 27 countries conducted for the BBC World Service by GlobeScan and the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes, only Israel, Iran and North Korea were perceived as having a more negative influence than the United States on world affairs. During 2002-06, European views of the desirability of U.S. leadership in world affairs has declined from 64% to 37%, while its undesirability has risen from 31% to 57%. Former U.S. National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski gives Bush an "F" for his "catastrophic leadership" in world affairs in his new book, Second Chance.

Particularly dramatic are E.U. and world perceptions of Bush. Confidence in the U.S. president has declined in all countries, mirroring similar declines in the United States itself.

Bush's standing is as low as 8-20% in the U.S. Muslim allies Pakistan, Egypt and Indonesia. In the United Kingdom, a long-standing U.S. ally and supporter of the Iraqi invasion, only 30% have confidence in Bush. In Germany and France, this figure is 25% and 15% respectively. In Spain, it is as low as 7%, a consequence of the 2004 Madrid train bombing. Only in India does Bush's rating exceed 50%. In China, confidence in Bush (34%) is higher than in most West European E.U. members; Russia is similar (21%).

The most dramatic decline is in long-time U.S. ally and NATO member Turkey, where only 3% have confidence in Bush. However, Turkish views of the E.U. have also declined, in response to what is seen as the E.U. stalling over Turkey's membership. This mirrors declining support for NATO, now at 44%. Another U.S. ally, South Korea, also shows strong anti-Americanism, with 60% having negative views of the United States as a "colonial power." Anti-Americanism has become fashionable among young South Koreans.

Large majorities believe the United States is acting in its own interests while ignoring the interests of its allies. Such views reflect widespread opposition to U.S. unilateralism in world affairs. The Bush administration is perceived as over-reliant on hard power while ignoring soft power, whereas the E.U. is perceived as good at using soft power.

The U.S. Council on Foreign Relations' Task Force on Public Diplomacy has pointed to a perceived lack of U.S. empathy for other people's pain and hardship (for example, U.S. reluctance to intervene in Liberia's civil war), arrogance and self-indulgence. The E.U. is the world's largest bilateral aid donor, providing twice as much aid to poor countries as the United States.

Iraq has played a major role in mobilizing anti-Americanism. In one survey, there were majorities in 10 out of 14 countries supporting the view that Iraq had made the world a more dangerous place. Even in the United Kingdom, which has the second-largest military contingent in Iraq, 60% agree with that proposition.

Abuse of prisoners both in Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay has damaged the image of the United States. More European than U.S. citizens have heard about incidents there, shaping their views. Brzezinski observes that the most powerful image of the United States is no longer the Statue of Liberty, but Guantanamo.

Support for NATO has declined in parallel with the fall in the U.S. image. Many countries see NATO as a U.S.-dominated organization. Like the anti-nuclear campaigners of the 1980s, countries conflate NATO with U.S. military power.

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Irwin
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« Reply #53 on: May 23, 2008, 11:47:38 AM »

It hasn't worked and will never work. Iraq proves that.

What hasn't worked...that Iraq proves?

We are currently negotiating with terrorist all over Iraq and Afghanistan and it is working.

David Petraeus, the commander who has changed the way the U.S. Army fights. "You can't kill your way out of an insurgency," Petraeus told NEWSWEEK, in an interview in his Baghdad headquarters last month.


For weeks, Wright and his fellow soldiers had been hunting for a militant leader named Jan Baz. Finally Wright's boss, Lt. Col. Walter Piatt, decided that if they couldn't kill or capture the fugitive, they'd co-opt him. Piatt asked the local Afghan governor to set up a face-to-face meeting, where the American colonel offered Jan Baz the job of local police chief. The militant, eager to cement his authority in the area, accepted. "Was there some shadiness going on there?" Wright asks. "Yes. But it worked." After Jan Baz was put on the American payroll, attacks dropped.

Read it:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/123475/output/print


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Irwin
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« Reply #54 on: May 23, 2008, 11:55:36 AM »

Quote
and the increased anti-American sentiment that has grown since OIF started.

How do you know that? The statements made in here like they're facts or just assumed......are abhorrent.  What are you talking about?


That crazy left wing rag "Forbes" Doesn't assume the facts they back it up with evidence:
 Anti-American Sentiment Grows Worldwide

European and world views of the United States and President George Bush have dramatically worsened since 2000...[my edit]



Thanks for posting this. Interesting.

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neue regel
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« Reply #55 on: May 23, 2008, 11:59:12 AM »

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After Jan Baz was put on the American payroll, attacks dropped.

I haven't seen paying off the enemy to not kill us as being in Obama's foreign policy.

I'll keep my eyes peeled.
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Irwin
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« Reply #56 on: May 23, 2008, 12:19:46 PM »

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After Jan Baz was put on the American payroll, attacks dropped.

I haven't seen paying off the enemy to not kill us as being in Obama's foreign policy.

I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Nice posturing. You seem to believe that killing is the only way to deal with terrorists. David Petraeus disagrees, "You can't kill your way out of an insurgency." You can kill, co-opt, negotiate, pay-off. You can do ALLL if that is what you need to do. If you read the article, you will see that the only resistance the commanders run into is idiots like Bush in the Pentagon, who have no idea what is going on on the ground and have never been near a war. These idiots prefer macho posturing to effective strategy. Like you.
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neue regel
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« Reply #57 on: May 23, 2008, 12:25:49 PM »

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Nice posturing. You seem to believe that killing is the only way to deal with terrorists. David Petraeus disagrees, "You can't kill your way out of an insurgency." You can kill, co-opt, negotiate, pay-off. You can do ALLL if that is what you need to do. If you read the article, you will see that the only resistance the commanders run into is idiots like Bush in the Pentagon, who have no idea what is going on on the ground and have never been near a war. These idiots prefer macho posturing to effective strategy. Like you.

Two things. First, there is a basic and distinct difference between insurgents and terrorists. Secondly, it is noted that you like the idea of payoff both insurgents and terrorists.

Of course we will have to come up with a pretty hefty sum in that Osama already pays for many of them. We have deep pockets, though.
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2008, 10:26:37 AM »

European and world views of the United States and President George Bush have dramatically worsened since 2000; the trend has intensified since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. There has been a decline in perceptions of the United States throughout the European Union, including in such traditional U.S. allies as the United Kingdom and Poland, and in Muslim and Latin American countries, according to annual polls undertaken by the German Marshall Fund of the United States, the Pew Research Center and the BBC World Service.


Polls are your measure? I see.

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--Whereas most people in the world have a positive view of the E.U., U.S. influence is in noticeable decline, even among formerly staunch allies.


I see Britian and Australia in Iraq with us, I see France moving into Afghanistan, Canada is doing outstanding work. What staunch former allies?

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--Divergent views within the E.U. on U.S. policy have their roots in the 1980s East-West split in Europe on the respective threat from Soviet and U.S. military power.


Exactly why polls suck on making definitive statements. An error my debate opponent doesn't factor.

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--Contemporary anti-Americanism derives largely -- but not entirely -- from President George Bush's Iraq policy.


Exact %'s...but not entirely...sort of...kinda? Like? Please.

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--It has waxed and waned before and is likely to subside again, in parallel with changes in the Washington administration and its foreign policy.


Waxed and waned like....all fickle poll taking endeavors? Your waxed and waned argument and likely to subside....what a f'n joke.

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In a March 2007 survey of 28,000 people in 27 countries conducted for the BBC World Service by GlobeScan and the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes, only Israel, Iran and North Korea were perceived as having a more negative influence than the United States on world affairs. During 2002-06, European views of the desirability of U.S. leadership in world affairs has declined from 64% to 37%, while its undesirability has risen from 31% to 57%.
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Former U.S. National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski
gives Bush an "F" for his "catastrophic leadership" in world affairs in his new book, Second Chance.


Has not one iota of credibility to be gradin nobody. And...how many countries in the world are there? 27 countries good enough for a solid poll? And.....how did Mexico vote? I read in some poll where Mexico don't favor us neither....and yet...pour in by the tens of millions.

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Particularly dramatic are E.U. and world perceptions of Bush. Confidence in the U.S. president has declined in all countries, mirroring similar declines in the United States itself.


World perceptions are often oblivious to reality. And I don't see a relative decline in US power and influence either. In fact..if you're an Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Saudi, Afghan, Paki, from Uzbekistan to Kurdistan, US power and influence is a daily reality. Got any arguments with actual substance?

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Large majorities believe the United States is acting in its own interests while ignoring the interests of its allies. Such views reflect widespread opposition to U.S. unilateralism in world affairs. The Bush administration is perceived as over-reliant on hard power while ignoring soft power, whereas the E.U. is perceived as good at using soft power.


You can give me the EU soft power victory list...when?

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The U.S. Council on Foreign Relations' Task Force on Public Diplomacy has pointed to a perceived lack of U.S. empathy for other people's pain and hardship (for example, U.S. reluctance to intervene in Liberia's civil war), arrogance and self-indulgence. The E.U. is the world's largest bilateral aid donor, providing twice as much aid to poor countries as the United States.


Perhaps pull our American Forces from their decades long presence in Germany and Europe proper...there protecting a rebuilding Europe from a just as viscious Stalinist regime...and give the savings to charity. Awfully easy to spout this nonsense now ain't it? The EU should be the largest f'n donor their incredibily nasty wars enveloped every continent they owe the planet some back pay! Tell you what...why not submit we stop taking care of the cemetaries on Euro soil that are full of dead Americans and we'll send the savings to "poor countries." Afterwards, stroll outside and hop into your recent model vehicle or enjoy typing on your oil based product computers and internet platforms. Cause, who do you think has been patrolling shipping lanes bringing you freedom? Our Aid packages to poor countries. Check that argument at the door, Chief, the United States is a huge reason you even have a f'n EU. Or a NATO. Or a UN.

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Abuse of prisoners both in Iraq and at Guantanamo Bay has damaged the image of the United States. More European than U.S. citizens have heard about incidents there, shaping their views. Brzezinski observes that the most powerful image of the United States is no longer the Statue of Liberty, but Guantanamo.

Well, if he says so..it must be true. Roll Eyes

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Support for NATO has declined in parallel with the fall in the U.S. image.


Support for NATO we've declined. As we realize multi-nation endeavors that worked so well during the world wars where nations fought, probably don't work on Jihadists and the other threats of today. Hopefully, we see the same reality with the UN as Bush exposed their inept and corrupt programs and peeled back the skin to see what was really happening. Seriously, is there anyone credible today arguing the UN can solve a serious crisis?
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jpn of Seattle
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« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2008, 02:10:51 PM »

Here's a hilarious video of a right-wing talkshow host explaining the "appeaser" thing:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d1wSZBTAXRs&feature=related
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