|
neue regel
|
 |
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2008, 10:52:22 AM » |
|
I don't really care. Too many folks like you went around in those days with your action movie ideas of a war and total ignorance of terrorism. You and your neocon buddies sneered at the sane folks who looked at the facts and used reason. You used the kind of macho dogma you throw around in this post, like how we supposedly have only a choice between "appeasement" and dropping bombs. I'm not "insulting you by saying you try to get around facts, I'm stating a fact. You do. You are trying to get around how troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are now NEGOTIATING with terrorists by
a) suddenly saying that terrorists and insurgents are different, when they use the same tactics.
b) throwing out the word Osama, as if saying we can't talk with him so all talk is useless.
c) talking about "realities" as if you are the one with something to teach me. No, I saw the disaster BEFORE it came and I'm not still stuck on trying to rationalize it like you.
Glad you decided to learn something about terrorism. Should have done it years ago, when you were too busy sneering at liberals and kissing Bush's ass. Yes, you are BRILLIANT!!! BRILLIANT!!!!! You are so smart without the benefit of ANY US intelligence. You saw things that neither Hillary nor Kerry nor Kennedy nor Bill Clinton saw!! With that towering intellect, maybe Obama picks YOU!!! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Irwin
|
|
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2008, 11:10:27 AM » |
|
I don't really care. Too many folks like you went around in those days with your action movie ideas of a war and total ignorance of terrorism. You and your neocon buddies sneered at the sane folks who looked at the facts and used reason. You used the kind of macho dogma you throw around in this post, like how we supposedly have only a choice between "appeasement" and dropping bombs. I'm not "insulting you by saying you try to get around facts, I'm stating a fact. You do. You are trying to get around how troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are now NEGOTIATING with terrorists by
a) suddenly saying that terrorists and insurgents are different, when they use the same tactics.
b) throwing out the word Osama, as if saying we can't talk with him so all talk is useless.
c) talking about "realities" as if you are the one with something to teach me. No, I saw the disaster BEFORE it came and I'm not still stuck on trying to rationalize it like you.
Glad you decided to learn something about terrorism. Should have done it years ago, when you were too busy sneering at liberals and kissing Bush's ass. Yes, you are BRILLIANT!!! BRILLIANT!!!!! You are so smart without the benefit of ANY US intelligence. You saw things that neither Hillary nor Kerry nor Kennedy nor Bill Clinton saw!! With that towering intellect, maybe Obama picks YOU!!! It wasn't just me it was MILLIONS of Americans and everyone around the world. Why? Because the world outside wasn't looking at the US media, which was being fed by the neocons. The "intelligence" was garbage from the start. (And it leaked out that Powell said so AT THE TIME.) I didn't need US intelligence to know Saddam and the fundamentalists were bitter enemies, that Saddam was terrified of Iran, that if he had WMD, he wanted them for Iran, -- all I had to do was pick up a book about ME history, read an article about the Iran/Iraq war -- even -- GOD Forbid! -- read the damn NY Times. You name all the politicians you like, you keep pretending voting for that resolution was anymore than politics, rather than agreeing with the neocon psychotics. Anyone who just looked at the evidence saw this coming from a mile away. I'm not a genius for seeing this way ahead of time, you are an idiot for NOT seeing it. Bush's daddy did! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
neue regel
|
|
« Reply #77 on: May 27, 2008, 11:15:06 AM » |
|
Key takeaways...1) Saddam could have had WMD but only wanted to use them against Iran. 2) Most Democrats will vote for war when politically expedient. ps: I'm not a genius for seeing this way ahead of time, you are an idiot for NOT seeing it. Bush's daddy did! Did he? Please tell us how GHW Bush's decision to boot Iraq out of Kuwait effected the terrorist movement. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Irwin
|
|
« Reply #78 on: May 27, 2008, 11:28:58 AM » |
|
Key takeaways...1) Saddam could have had WMD but only wanted to use them against Iran. 2) Most Democrats will vote for war when politically expedient. ps: I'm not a genius for seeing this way ahead of time, you are an idiot for NOT seeing it. Bush's daddy did! Did he? Please tell us how GHW Bush's decision to boot Iraq out of Kuwait effected the terrorist movement. Key takeaways. Try key pieces of spin. 1) MOST politicians say what they need to when their other choice is being accused of treason, which is what standing up against the neocon thugs meant back then. 2) We are not talking about Bush's invasion of Kuwait, (that's called a red herring) we are talking about him knowing how stupid it was to invade Iraq. 3) Saddam COULD have had WMD, and he wanted them against Iran. That's right. The US gave him WMD for that purpose. Why don't you look into Pakistan, genius. Hm? They have nukes, (unlike Iraq) are currently harboring OBL, Musharraf had personal connections and contact with OBL to arrange an assassinaton attempt on Bhutto, most of the 9/11 hijackers were pakistani --- but wait Saddam MIGHT have WMD, which he would only want for our enemy Iran. You are a genius! |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
neue regel
|
|
« Reply #79 on: May 27, 2008, 11:34:37 AM » |
|
We are not talking about Bush's invasion of Kuwait I'm not a genius for seeing this way ahead of time, you are an idiot for NOT seeing it. Bush's daddy did! We? No. You? Yes. You didn't explain how Bush's decision to run Saddam out of Kuwait effected the terrorist movement. You said GHW Bush did it right and his son did it wrong. I look forward to the discussion. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Irwin
|
|
« Reply #80 on: May 27, 2008, 11:48:34 AM » |
|
We are not talking about Bush's invasion of Kuwait I'm not a genius for seeing this way ahead of time, you are an idiot for NOT seeing it. Bush's daddy did! We? No. You? Yes. You didn't explain how Bush's decision to run Saddam out of Kuwait effected the terrorist movement. You said GHW Bush did it right and his son did it wrong. I look forward to the discussion. No, we are not switching to a subject you would like to answer because you can't answer the subject at hand. You made the argument that only a "genius" at the time could know that the intelligence was faulty. I said it only took someone of normal intelligence to look at Iraq, it's history and the facts. I said GHW Bush came to the same conclusions I, millions of Americans, and most of the world did. When someone (you) is confronted by an argument they can't answer, they try to bait their opponent with a "red herring." You are trying to get me to answer the question I know very well the answer to, so you can talk about that, and cover your inability to answer what we were talking about. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. So, let's not let you change focus: George Bush Sr. Knew that invading Iraq was a mistake, back when he ejected Iraq from Kuwait. So, it was perfectly easy to see that invading Iraq would be a mistake. If you would like to discuss your red herring, please bring it up openly and we will begin a new discussion. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
CharlesMartel
|
|
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2008, 06:04:57 PM » |
|
1) Saddam was a check on Iran. Was he? And with Saddam still in power...and rising oil demand....and Iranian desires for a nuclear weapon(surely Saddam wouldn't simply ignore this), another clash was inevitable was it not? I need not remind you of the historic warfare between Arab and Persian...certainly. And while checking Iran...what was Saddam doing to the Shia in his south, Kurds to his north, Kuwait to his flank? 2) The WMD claim was weak at best. He had them, used them, never reported their whereabouts, and lied consistently. It was never the United States' job to go into Iraq and find WMDs. 3) The claim that Saddam and Islamic Fundamentalists would team up was laughable. Fundimentalists despised Saddam, who murdered them mercilessly. Abu Abbas and Abu Nidal ring bells. Hello! 4) A war in the heart of the Middle East was exactly what OBL wanted. It was the only thing that could turn his well-funded campaign of elites into a global movement. (He thought this might happen in Afghanistan. It didn't because reasons I can go into at another time. Then Bush gave him the gift of Iraq.) He wanted just the opposite and you have no clue as to what you're talking about. Do you? You find me Bin Laden wanting a war in the ME. Have you read his Fatwa, his little declaration of war, do you even know who he is, where he comes from? For the love of God, f'n pay attention. 5) Saddam wasn't a threat to us, or Israel, he was a man who lived in terror of an Iranian invasion. Period. No, just firing on our probably illegal no fly zones implemented to keep him from slaughtering his own people. Involved in an unprecedented oil for food corruption sliding him by serious sanctions everyone of them he ignored. He had international terrorists hidden in Iraq, he paid families of suicide terrorists. And his invasion of Kuwait doesn't seem to follow your ridiculous notion of Saddam being afraid of Iran. He treated their shia brethren mercilessly during his reign before and after our wars, his army much more capable than Iran's. And I guess you may have forgotten his SCUD attacks on Israel attempting to broaden his war, the WMD fear so great the news hounds would run for gas masks noone then had any trouble understanding Saddam would easy kill thousands to make a point. Lastly, I reckon Israel was way off going to Osirak in 1983, they seem to disagree Saddam was no threat. You know Irwin, if not for reality, some of your crap would actually pass muster. Alas, it so don't. 6) George Bush Sr. avoided invading Iraq for the same reason I opposed it. I knew before it all started that we would be EXACTLY in this place here and now. Monday morning QB braggings? The reasons for opposing could fill volumes. Oh, yeah, I know guys like you try to get around facts by saying things like, 'oh, you would have been against it any way' or 'you just opposed Iraq because you hated bush.' So: I supported action in Kosovo, Bosnia and afghanistan. NOT Iraq. Your post prior to 2003 predicting such is...where again? Forum, thread, and post # of your claims would do alot more for your credibility than trying to sound as if you know what in God's name you're talking about. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
CharlesMartel
|
|
« Reply #82 on: May 27, 2008, 06:20:22 PM » |
|
The quotations are from OBL's 1998 Fatwa declaring Jihad against the US. You should read it sometime, Irwin.  No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone: Hold on there, Osama...Irwin is arguing with you, thinks you want us in the ME so as you can attack us(as if you had any trouble before we entered Iraq) First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. Turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead to launch wars? Does this sound like a man trying to incite war inside Arabia..or finds it offensive wars occur torched off by American presence? If some people have formerly debated the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. Irwin is telling us you WANT us there, an occupation benefits you! Go figure. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. Sound like he wants another war?.....Irwin....with your exactly what Bin Laden wanted bs. Please, you're not even paying attention, you're not even close on this one. So now they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. But...you want us there huh, OBL? Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. Yes, the Israeli support issue, always a sticking point with terrorists, we support the democratic Israel...we recognize her right to existence. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. Irwin......are you crystal clear positive he wanted a war...I mean...his Fatwa just simply ain't consistent with your guess here. I suggest some reading. What in the world! |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 27, 2008, 06:22:02 PM by CharlesMartel »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
jpn of Seattle
|
|
« Reply #83 on: May 27, 2008, 06:42:45 PM » |
|
It wasn't just me it was MILLIONS of Americans and everyone around the world. I marched in downtown Seattle http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20030216&slug=protests16 along with an estimated 25,000 fellow citizens on February 15, 2003. I marched because: - I was afraid of unleashing civil war, and,
- I was convinced that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
What you got is everything-and I mean everything—run by the political arm. It’s the reign of the Mayberry Machiavellis. --John DiIulio, former White House official
|
|
|
|
Irwin
|
|
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2008, 10:18:16 AM » |
|
The quotations are from OBL's 1998 Fatwa declaring Jihad against the US. You should read it sometime, Irwin. No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone: Hold on there, Osama...Irwin is arguing with you, thinks you want us in the ME so as you can attack us(as if you had any trouble before we entered Iraq) First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples. Turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead to launch wars? Does this sound like a man trying to incite war inside Arabia..or finds it offensive wars occur torched off by American presence? If some people have formerly debated the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it. Irwin is telling us you WANT us there, an occupation benefits you! Go figure. The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, still they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, in excess of 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation. Sound like he wants another war?.....Irwin....with your exactly what Bin Laden wanted bs. Please, you're not even paying attention, you're not even close on this one. So now they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors. But...you want us there huh, OBL? Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there. Yes, the Israeli support issue, always a sticking point with terrorists, we support the democratic Israel...we recognize her right to existence. The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula. Irwin......are you crystal clear positive he wanted a war...I mean...his Fatwa just simply ain't consistent with your guess here. I suggest some reading. What in the world! Read it in 1999. New York Times quoted it, then. Found it online in 2002. OBL's intent was to embroil us in a war that would incite a global terror movement, said movement was designed to eject US troops fr/ Saudi. He succeeded, not where he thought he would, in Afghanistan, but in Iraq. Iraq created the global movement and the troops were removed from Saudi. But we were talking about Bush Sr. not being dumb enough to invade Iraq because he knew the consequences. I see you can take apart a post and then repeat debunked junk after my quotes. Too bad you can't say anything that actually challenges my arguments. I'm sorry, worthless outdated arguments like yours were destroyed long ago. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 28, 2008, 10:20:47 AM by Irwin »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Irwin
|
|
« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2008, 10:45:36 AM » |
|
Yes, you are BRILLIANT!!! BRILLIANT!!!!! You are so smart without the benefit of ANY US intelligence. You saw things that neither Hillary nor Kerry nor Kennedy nor Bill Clinton saw!!
With that towering intellect, maybe Obama picks YOU!!!
And I quote, Scott McClellen: "The collapse of the administration's rationales for war, which became apparent months after our invasion, should never have come as such a surprise. …Thank You Mr. McClellen. The idea of going to war was based on propaganda campaign, NOT INTEL. Politicians, trusting the Pres., authorized war IF NECESSARY. It was up to the Pres to see that it wasn't necessary. He was only interested in propaganda. CASE CLOSED. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
