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Author Topic: Calif. Supreme Court rejects gay marriage ban  (Read 3712 times)
tadpol
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« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2008, 02:07:51 PM »

I don't know anything about banning 'gay marriages.' This thread, I thought, was about same sex marriage.
I don't understand the distinction.


OK, so the "ban gay marriages" thing seems to hinge on the fact that marriage is between a man and a woman.

So, if it changes, why is that a problem again? Is it all about getting pissy when it comes to definitions? This seriously bugs me.


BTW, I haven't read to see if anybody is against this, and if there isn't, oh well.
In case you check back. There is some contention here about who should have control of the definition, and I think it matters who has control of definitions as one can use that intelligently to substantially change rules.
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2008, 02:15:42 PM »

I don't understand the distinction.

Neither did I, reason I asked.
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tadpol
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« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2008, 02:40:51 PM »

They are generally used interchangeably.
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freethinker
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« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2008, 03:34:19 PM »

I don't know anything about banning 'gay marriages.' This thread, I thought, was about same sex marriage.
Read the thread title Einstein.
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2008, 04:55:43 PM »

They are generally used interchangeably.

So, you and I walk into the town square and ask for a marriage license. We're turned down immediately. Is the State taking any legal issue with your orientation, is there a disctinction here you'd like to make, one you had trouble seeing before?
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bringbackwigs
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« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2008, 07:46:52 PM »

I don't know anything about banning 'gay marriages.' This thread, I thought, was about same sex marriage.
Read the thread title Einstein.


That's what I was thinking.

Quote
In case you check back. There is some contention here about who should have control of the definition, and I think it matters who has control of definitions as one can use that intelligently to substantially change rules.

In what way?
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2008, 04:33:56 AM »

Read the thread title Einstein.

I'm having a conversation within it, obviously, I've read the thread title.

You can, perhaps, answer my question then? You know...go beyond your usual troll level stuff and actually speak to the topic. I should be the one asking who has read the title of the thread, I don't see you speaking to it, rather......speaking to a forum member you've supposedly seen so many of before.

Yer a tad transparent frenchy.
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tadpol
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« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2008, 12:14:08 PM »

Quote
In case you check back. There is some contention here about who should have control of the definition, and I think it matters who has control of definitions as one can use that intelligently to substantially change rules.

In what way?
I was thinking about coordinated micro changes making macro changes. As I understand it constitutional law is based heavily on definitions, and touches on daily life more than one would expect.


So, you and I walk into the town square and ask for a marriage license. We're turned down immediately. Is the State taking any legal issue with your orientation, is there a disctinction here you'd like to make, one you had trouble seeing before?

A distinction I'd like to make? No.
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freethinker
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« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2008, 02:45:01 PM »

Read the thread title Einstein.

I'm having a conversation within it, obviously, I've read the thread title.
Riiiiiiigggghhhttt
Quote
This thread, I thought, was about same sex marriage




I'm Really quite curious Char Mar, why does it make any difference to you whether or not gays can marry?
 Please explain your deep level of concern about the outcome of this issue.
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2008, 03:29:54 PM »

I'm Really quite curious Char Mar, why does it make any difference to you whether or not gays can marry? Please explain your deep level of concern about the outcome of this issue.

I have a deep level of concern where anyone else has deep concern when their rights are stomped on. I happen to think we're in a cultural crisis. I see Presidential candidates calling for a nationalized health plan....socialized medicine. I see the State of Virginia's third term abortion law was just shot down by a 2-1 margin, I'll be just as vocal about that.

We clearly disagree here you being 'curious' about an opinion from me I find disingenuous given your greeting to me on these forums. I'm jumping on every right taken from me and don't understand equal outrage from my fellow citizens. The judiciary does not define my rights, they're clearly responsible for interpretting law. These are now two stunning examples of grevious misreadings of judicial review and I take offense to it.

I'm asking who should be the final definition here? Should any state...and many already do...amend their Constitution to read exactly that marriage in this society of laws is defined by one man and one woman unrelated and unwed. Should ANY court receive this in appeal, it is clear what their interpretation should be. Is it not? Should a few men and women in robes or a man occupying a temporary executive seat define marriage...or should the legislature steered by its constituents either through referendum or representative vote rule the day? Frenchy?

It's a no brainer and the defense of such judicial actions as you happen to support that particular political position is no reason to get one of your every 28 day nose bleeds and hand over your basic rights as a human being. You can stand there and offer yours, I'll keep mine, but I will go get you a kleenex for that nose.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 03:31:51 PM by CharlesMartel » Logged
Abraxas
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« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2008, 04:34:16 PM »

I have a deep level of concern where anyone else has deep concern when their rights are stomped on.

What right of yours is stomped on when the court allows gay people to marry?

The 9th ammendment comes before the 10th, so the court has a right to decide on the equal rights of citizens.

So again, what right is being stomped on?

Quote from: CharlesMartel
I happen to think we're in a cultural crisis. I see Presidential candidates calling for a nationalized health plan....socialized medicine. I see the State of Virginia's third term abortion law was just shot down by a 2-1 margin, I'll be just as vocal about that.

We can actually agree on this. Well, on our mutual dissatisfaction with both points you mentioned.

Personally, I believe calling it a "cultural crisis" is a bit of hyperbole.

Quote from: CharlesMartel
We clearly disagree here you being 'curious' about an opinion from me I find disingenuous given your greeting to me on these forums. I'm jumping on every right taken from me and don't understand equal outrage from my fellow citizens.

Could it be - now hold on for what might come as a shock to you - you're wrong?

Or maybe "everyone else's opinion" doesn't matter when it doesn't agree with yours?

Quote from: CharlesMartel
The judiciary does not define my rights...

No, the Constitution does. The Judiciary is tasked with interpreting the Constitution, which they did here.

Quote from: CharlesMartel
... they're clearly responsible for interpretting law. These are now two stunning examples of grevious misreadings of judicial review and I take offense to it.

Wait, what's the second?

Quote from: CharlesMartel
I'm asking who should be the final definition here? Should any state...and many already do...amend their Constitution to read exactly that marriage in this society of laws is defined by one man and one woman unrelated and unwed.

No, it's not their right to do so seeing as it "disparages [the rights] retained by the people".

As a result, the right to define marriage is a power "prohibited to the states" the courts and federal government are allowed to participate.

The right to enter civil unions should not be denied to gay couples.

Quote from: CharlesMartel
Should ANY court receive this in appeal, it is clear what their interpretation should be. Is it not? Should a few men and women in robes or a man occupying a temporary executive seat define marriage...or should the legislature steered by its constituents either through referendum or representative vote rule the day? Frenchy?

In this case, no.

Again, I bring you back to the hypothetical vote on making America a Christian nation. It would probably pass but it would violate the 1st ammendment.

It's no different then people voting to deny rights to gay people. It violates the 9th ammendment and is therefor NOT a choice they are allowed to make.

Quote from: CharlesMartel
It's a no brainer...

So why are you having so much trouble with it?

Quote from: CharlesMartel
... and the defense of such judicial actions as you happen to support that particular political position is no reason to get one of your every 28 day nose bleeds and hand over your basic rights as a human being. You can stand there and offer yours, I'll keep mine, but I will go get you a kleenex for that nose.

I support the Constitution.

I'm sorry you disagree with it, but tough toe nails.
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« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2008, 05:29:08 PM »

Abraxas asks a very good question Car Mar Spell out exactly what right of yours is stomped on if a couple of fags now living together are granted  a document legitimizing their relationship? How does that hurt  you?? How did you hand over your rights if you allow this to take place?
 There is nothing "clear" about my position on this subject I have never offered an opinion on it
 BTW make a convincing argument and I might agree with you.
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tadpol
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« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2008, 01:51:18 AM »

There is a document legitimizing their relationships, civil unions provide comparable duties and privileges as marriage in CA, according to this ruling.

I'm a little fuzzy on what is lost, considering a distinction between a government licensed status and a religious ceremony with the same name.

Could you walk me through how the 9th works to protect gay rights? I understand how it leaves room for gay rights, but I'm unclear how it provides a defense of any specific right in way way that does not give me a right to steal. And are the amendments in an order that you apply the first before the last? I thought they were independent of each other, and if order matters I'd think it'd go last to first so the most resent change applies to older changes.
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CharlesMartel
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« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2008, 06:38:43 AM »

Abraxas asks a very good question Car Mar

Why the need to stand behind him with f'n poms poms in your hand cheerleading. I haven't even responded to his post yet...Frenchy.

Quote
Spell out exactly what right of yours is stomped on if a couple of fags now living together are granted  a document legitimizing their relationship? How does that hurt  you?? How did you hand over your rights if you allow this to take place?


And the "document legitimizing their relationship" is exactly right. The majority do not want marriage used to legitimize homosexuality and therefore vote against it. Overwhelmingly. It is the reason there is a federal statute, the reason many states have amended their Constitutions. For example...this ridiculous California ruling...doesn't now apply to other states. If you're married in California, that is not going to be recognized in my state, and it's not recognized by the federal government either, benefits such as ss will not be afforded. (Thank God).

Quote
There is nothing "clear" about my position on this subject I have never offered an opinion on it.

Trolls don't normally take clear positions so, I don't find that odd.
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freethinker
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« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2008, 06:58:08 AM »

 You still didn't answer the question...What specific "right " do you lose if gays can get married?
 You argument seems to be predicated on this loss of some right or rights you are outraged about. What is this "right" you speak of that would be stomped on ??
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