Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +215/-216
Posts: 4,184
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« on: May 20, 2008, 11:04:31 AM » |
|
For a long time we've argued over the legality and legitimacy of smoking bans in resteraunts and bars. Opponents like myself have cited the potential for a "slippery slope" and I bring before you Exhibit A: County: Smokers need not apply
SARASOTA — Citing the burden they place on taxpayers who pay for government workers' health insurance, Sarasota County officials announced Monday that they no longer will hire smokers.
The policy makes Sarasota County the first county in Southwest Florida to make smoking a hiring issue. Charlotte and Manatee counties do not, though Manatee has policies designed to discourage employees from smoking.
Sarasota County Administrator Jim Ley said the hiring ban came out of "a five- or six-year strategy to produce a healthier work force and manage our long-term health care costs."
The county currently pays about $31 million annually in health benefits for 3,600 employees, or $8,600 per worker.
Ley said not hiring smokers should help limit the annual growth in health care costs, the most expensive perk offered to county employees.
Patrick Reynolds, who runs Foundation for a Smoke Free America, said it is hard to gauge the popularity of such hiring policies.
They are less prevalent than smoking bans in restaurants and public places and largely dependent on state labor laws, he said.
"It's really a question of what extent the state empowers companies to refuse to hire smokers," said Reynolds, who only tracks statewide smoking policies. "We know these bans contribute to the overall goal of a smoke free America."
In Florida, government agencies that refuse to hire smokers range from the sheriff's offices in Hernando, Hillsborough and Pasco Counties to the city of Atlantic Beach.
Manatee County employees who are smokers must pay more for the best health care coverage and attend a class about smoking. The county is also exploring ways to get more people to quit, said Manatee County Administrator Ed Hunzeker. The rest...I don't smoke. I hate smoke. I hate the way my clothes stink after I leave a bar... but I see no legal authority for the government to deny employment to a smoker - unless they can deny employment to a disabled person, too. Of course, the latter would be rightfully met with extreme protest and sympathy for the disabled people unable to work... ... but I doubt such protest will happen here. This is that "slippery slope" we've been talking about...
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|
IamMe
|
 |
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2008, 01:08:56 PM » |
|
Well, disability is hardly analogous to smoking (which is voluntary) but I agree in general.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
|
|
|
Cryptomaniac
Full Member
 
Karma: +35/-6
Posts: 191
|
 |
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 01:28:40 PM » |
|
Yep, this is definitely a slippery slope. I can't stand cigarettes either, but this is way overboard.
Your analogy against the disabled may not be entirely appropriate since they may not have had any way of avoiding their disability, but what about people who are obese? Could the county just stop hiring fat people because they have greater risks of diabetes and heart disease and other expensive medical problems? I can't see where that would be appropriate.
Or what about people who skydive or enjoy some other potentially hazardous pass-time. Could the county say, "we don't want to risk having to pay for your care if you get hurt, so you don't need to apply." Or maybe one day we won't be able to apply if we are sexually active. After all, what county would want to pay for treatment for the clap?
I know these seem ridiculous, but they aren't that far removed from banning smokers from working.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Reaganite
|
 |
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 02:02:19 PM » |
|
Fat people cost 10 times more then smokers.
but you cant discriminate againts fatties.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
You get what you pay for America... Welcome to the Obamanation.....
|
|
|
Cryptomaniac
Full Member
 
Karma: +35/-6
Posts: 191
|
 |
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 02:07:26 PM » |
|
Fat people cost 10 times more then smokers.
but you cant discriminate againts fatties.
You might be right. I know that diseases and illnesses linked to obesity can be far more serious and there can be far more of them than with cigarette smoking. It just seems like we are charting a dangerous course by attempting to preclude people from work if they chose to live an unhealthy, or potentially unhealthy lifestyle.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
IamMe
|
 |
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2008, 02:13:15 PM » |
|
Fat people cost 10 times more then smokers.
but you cant discriminate againts fatties.
Yes you can, just build narrow doorways.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
|
|
|
|
micfranklin
|
 |
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2008, 02:23:15 PM » |
|
Dictating who gets a job whether they used to smoke or not.....lovely 
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
tadpol
|
 |
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2008, 02:35:47 PM » |
|
I thought the government was trying to prevent discrimination and help people get insurance.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
And Justice For All
|
 |
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2008, 08:04:05 PM » |
|
What's next alcohol and donuts?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Alright Clanton, you called down the thunder well now you got it! The cowboys are finished, you understand me? I see a red sash I kill a man wearing it. So run you Kurr. You tell em Im coming and hells coming with me you hear. Hells coming with me!
-Wyatt Earp
|
|
|
bringbackwigs
Professional Post-Whore
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +158/-183
Posts: 3,115
Please refrain from taking my posts seriously
|
 |
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2008, 08:06:59 PM » |
|
I hate people.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
In religion and politics, people\\\\\\\\\'s beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second hand, and without examination. - Mark Twain 
|
|
|
|
freethinker
|
 |
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 08:27:04 PM » |
|
Obesity is the number one cause of diabetes, 44 million obese in the US, 17 million with diabetes. About 40%. The risk of developing lung cancer among smokers is 17%. If this is truly a case of protecting the taxpayers from the burden of paying for health risks the county can't ignore the obese factor... but they do. I don't smoke either but this is clearly a case of picking on smokers for social , not health / financial reasons.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Yes we can ...and now we will...
|
|
|
Biker Dude
A TRUE Liberal!
Forum Administrator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +157/-117
Posts: 2,142
Live to Ride, Ride to Live
|
 |
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 09:00:42 PM » |
|
Well, I guess if we had a nice socialized health care system, THEN the government might have even more reason to stick it's nose in our business. Yet another reason to be against such a thing.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Who will watch the watchers?Now that it is over, what are we going to talk about?
|
|
|
Jericoacoara
Hero Member
   
Karma: +68/-11
Posts: 895
Fortaleza IAP 1.0
|
 |
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2008, 09:42:02 PM » |
|
but I see no legal authority for the government to deny employment to a smoker - At first I thought the same but I read your article in whole and found the answer  In Florida, the right not to hire employees who smoke was upheld by a 1995 ruling of the state Supreme Court. Reading many of the replies on this thread, I can't help thinking that the real issue is being missed here. The reason for implementing this policy is strictly for cost minimisation purposes, ie to increase companys profits or in this particular case, save taxpayers funds. The rationale for this policy is outlined in the article said employees who smoke cost their employer about $3,400 a year in lost productivity and medical expenses. Now, I wouldn't have a clue if that figure is accurate or not, or if it has any foundation but that is the reason behind the policy. So, I guess the issue that people should be thinking about, it how discriminatory can employers be on employees personal habits or characteristics in order to save costs. I must admit, on first cursory glance, the new policy seems a bit heavy handed to me. I mean, they are talking about banning employees who have spouses who smoke, which is clearly going too far. IMO they should think a bit outside the square in order to still cut costs, whilst not being discriminatory against smokers. Maybe they could get the smokers to contribute to medical insurance or pay a premium. Also they can implement a policy whereby workers who take 5 or 10 minutes for a smoke during work hours, have it deducted from lunch hours. There are ways and means they can achieve their desired cost saving(assuming the studies and statistics are accurate) without having to go for a full outright ban.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 09:51:52 PM by Jericoacoara »
|
Logged
|
The greatest tragedy is for a person to die with the music still within them.
|
|
|
|
Pond Scum
|
 |
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2008, 11:41:21 PM » |
|
I hate people.
Your best post by far. I may have to reevaluate my opinion of you.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Abraxas
Global Moderator
Hero Member
   
Karma: +215/-216
Posts: 4,184
"You do not speak for the rest"
|
 |
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2008, 07:52:00 AM » |
|
but I see no legal authority for the government to deny employment to a smoker - At first I thought the same but I read your article in whole and found the answer  In Florida, the right not to hire employees who smoke was upheld by a 1995 ruling of the state Supreme Court. Reading many of the replies on this thread, I can't help thinking that the real issue is being missed here. The reason for implementing this policy is strictly for cost minimisation purposes, ie to increase companys profits or in this particular case, save taxpayers funds. The rationale for this policy is outlined in the article said employees who smoke cost their employer about $3,400 a year in lost productivity and medical expenses. Now, I wouldn't have a clue if that figure is accurate or not, or if it has any foundation but that is the reason behind the policy. So, I guess the issue that people should be thinking about, it how discriminatory can employers be on employees personal habits or characteristics in order to save costs. You're right. I didn't see that. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I wonder if that ruling would allow for workers to deny employment because of obesity (a better analogy then the one I used). I'll have to look into that. I must admit, on first cursory glance, the new policy seems a bit heavy handed to me. I mean, they are talking about banning employees who have spouses who smoke, which is clearly going too far.
IMO they should think a bit outside the square in order to still cut costs, whilst not being discriminatory against smokers.
Maybe they could get the smokers to contribute to medical insurance or pay a premium. Also they can implement a policy whereby workers who take 5 or 10 minutes for a smoke during work hours, have it deducted from lunch hours.
There are ways and means they can achieve their desired cost saving(assuming the studies and statistics are accurate) without having to go for a full outright ban. Very true. It sounds like either laziness or apathy (or both) on behalf of county leaders.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like its from Neptune. - Noam Chomsky
... you can almost see the high water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back. - Hunter S. Thompson
|
|
|
|