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Question: Should Israel re-invade Gaza strip so Fatah can gain control over there?
Yes, Fatah are pussies and only Israel can bring them to power - 0 (0%)
No, Israel would stuck there like they did in Lebanon which will make situation even worse - 2 (33.3%)
Yes, brave Palestinian fighters will kill any occupant like great Hezballah did during latest Lebanese-Israeli conflict - 0 (0%)
No, Iran will use major conflict to trigger Hezballah and Syria to simulatneously attack Israel like they wanted to during latest Lebanese-Israeli conflict - 0 (0%)
No, it will cause death on both sides and no progress will be made utill both put weapons aside and talk under pressure of international community - 3 (50%)
No, Jews got hidden plan to overtake Gaza strip to build there settlements and the last they care is about Fatah - 0 (0%)
Yes, even if Israel won't stop rocketing of South Israel and Fatah won't gain full power in Gaza strip Hamas and Jihad will be deadly bitten and this is worth to try - 1 (16.7%)
Total Voters: 6

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Author Topic: Should Israel re-invade Gaza strip so Fatah can gai ncontrol over there?  (Read 4592 times)
Terry Mathis
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2008, 02:29:56 PM »



Why should Israel compromise and not Hamas? After all, Israel is a nation, Hamas is a violent terrorist group.
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2008, 02:39:19 PM »

Why should Israel compromise and not Hamas? After all, Israel is a nation, Hamas is a violent terrorist group.

Someone must make the first move. And, frankly, if Israel continues to insist that Hamas recognise the legitimacy of their expulsion from their own land as a precursor to any negotiations then there cannot be compromise, only more violence.
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Terry Mathis
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2008, 02:53:07 PM »

Why should Israel compromise and not Hamas? After all, Israel is a nation, Hamas is a violent terrorist group.

Someone must make the first move. And, frankly, if Israel continues to insist that Hamas recognise the legitimacy of their expulsion from their own land as a precursor to any negotiations then there cannot be compromise, only more violence.


Hamas has to lay off Israel, not the other way around. Don't you think that if Hamas weren't attacking everyday from all sides, that Israel would go easier on them? As it is, Israeli citizens are being attacked simply because they are Israeli's.

That is the reality of the situation, unless someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat in Egypt in informal negotiations between all parties. As I understand it, the Israeli government is giving the negotiations a few more days to see if something can be worked out before they send their alerted Army and Air Force into Gaza.
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2008, 05:27:18 PM »

It is my belief that if Israel were to drop its demand for their right to exist to be recongised then meaningful negotiations may begin... 

  Grin Grin  Do you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about??  (Let me guess, If you're in the US, you support Obama for President??)  Wink

IamME... Have you ever bothered to read the Covenant of Hamas??

Quote from: IamMe
expulsion... 

And I'm assuming your can back that up with facts "IamMe"??  lol

Quote
...from their own land...
Here we go again... Now it was "their own land"??  And I suppose you can back that up too...right "IamMe"??  lol  (rhetorical... don't bother... lol)

You apparently don't even know the most basic of facts regarding this situation... Sounds like you've been reading too much biased propaganda, without bothering to do any homework on your own... Try it sometime... You might actually learn something.  Wink
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 05:35:14 PM by realityman » Logged
Cass
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2008, 05:37:25 PM »

Anyone want to take a shot at attempting to decipher this post today on DEBKAfile?  Is this an attempt at some kind of truce?
It is confusing to say the least. Is this a single step forward or just propaganda? Or an attack, not just on Olmert, but on others?  Probably should be posted on a link, but it appears to even try to understand what is being said or done one needs to read the complete article.

Israeli cabinet accepts Egyptian formula for truce with Hamas
June 11, 2008, 10:02 PM (GMT+02:00)
The prime minister Ehud Olmert’s decision, coupled with orders to the military to stand by for all eventualities, was endorsed by the security cabinet Wednesday, June 11, as Hamas continued to shoot mortars at Israel. Four shells injured three Israelis at the same Kibbutz Nir-Oz factory where Amnon Rosenberg was killed last week. A storehouse of inflammable materials caught fire.

The Palestinian attack followed - and was succeeded by - Israel air force raids over southern Gaza to stop the mortar and missile fire.

DEBKAfile’s military sources report that Kibbutz Nir-Oz and its neighbors in the Eshkol region which abuts on Gaza have no shelters and the Red Color alert for missiles does not work for mortar shells. Hamas’ newly-smuggled 155mm ordnance is more powerful and accurate than its older stocks.

Because of the mortar fire, the IDF shut the Sufa crossing to the entry of food trucks for the Gaza population. Tuesday, 18 mortar rounds and four missiles were fired from the Gaza Strip, forcing truck drivers to halt their deliveries of wheat for Gaza through the Karni crossing. A group of Israeli protesters from the locations under daily Palestinian attack protested outside the prime minister’s office in Jerusalem Wednesday. Many are leaving the region, abandoning homes and jobs, after giving up on government action to halt the measured Palestinian harassment.

DEBKAfile’s military sources reported earlier Tuesday that prime minister Ehud Olmert, supported by defense minister Ehud Barak and foreign minister Tzipi Livni, had effectively opted to take up the Egyptian-Hamas informal offer of a truce in Gaza – possibly preceded by a nominal Israeli military attack which leaves Hamas riding high.

DEBKAfile’s Middle East sources confirm that, contrary to various claims, Hamas has not accepted Israel’s terms for a truce, any more than the Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas heeded Israel’s ultimatum when he went ahead over the weekend with reconciliation talks with Hamas in Dakar. The Olmert government has quietly bowed to Cairo’s formula and agreed to a tryout of an informal, unsigned truce, which Hamas is free to end at any moment; problems arising would be solved ad hoc.

The Israeli government thus surrendered to the following situation:
1. Hamas is under no binding commitment to hold its missile fire or force its allied terrorist groups in the territory it governs to join a ceasefire. Although they rule the Gaza Strip, Hamas leaders shrug off responsibility for Jihad Islami and other Palestinian terrorist groups. The missile and mortar attacks from Gaza may slow down for a while but undoubtedly continue. The same applies to Palestinian terrorist incursions across the border.
2. The informal truce arrangement does not provide for the release of the Israel soldier Gilead Shalit, as Olmert promised. He has been held captive for nearly two years since he was kidnapped on Israeli soil. Thursday, Hamas rejected any linkage between the truce and his release.
3. Another Israeli condition ignored in the upcoming truce deal is the guaranteed cessation of smuggling to the Gaza Strip through Sinai of Palestinian fighting men, armaments and money. Whereas Egypt offered another of its empty promises to stem the flow, in the last two weeks, an unprecedented volume of smuggled war materiel was allowed to reach the Gaza Strip and top up Hamas’ war arsenal.
4. Israel has quietly agreed to lift its blockade of the Gaza Strip in stages. This entails reopening the border crossings, including the Rafah terminal to Egyptian Sinai. Next are negotiations through Egypt for handing the crossing facilities over to Mahmoud Abbas’ presidential guard.
In this way, Israel lets itself be maneuvered into “contributing“ to the Palestinian fence-mending deal between Fatah and Hamas, and accepting Hamas as the ruling power in the Gaza Strip behind a token PA administration.
There is nothing to stop the same formula from being extended to the West Bank, installing Hamas as the majority power in Ramallah.

http://www.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=5336
 

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« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2008, 06:51:29 AM »

Fatah are already seen as Israel's subcontractors. If Israel inducts Fatah rule in Gaza, the analogies with the Vichy and other collaborators would be imminent.

Let me put it this way. Invasion of Gaza could have a positive effect if followed by a quick deal on the two-state solution. But Israel has no intention of addressing the territorial question. So either Israel will resume PERMANENT occupation of Gaza, or Hamas will sooner or later kick Fatah out of power because things will remain as they were before 2006, - year after year without statehood and without any prospect thereof.

Realityman, looks like you continue to encounter naive people. Those who somehow got the incredible idea that Palestine was the land of Palestinians. Keep up the good work of educating those idealistic folks. Palestine was not the land Palestinians and Africa was not the land of Africans and India wasn't the land of Indians, until the British Queen say so. BTW, the Queen is the sole sovereign of all the Britain, so Britain has never been the land of the Brits. Tell em that.
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« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2008, 11:12:45 AM »

It is my belief that if Israel were to drop its demand for their right to exist to be recongised then meaningful negotiations may begin... 

  Grin Grin  Do you have the slightest idea of what you're talking about??  (Let me guess, If you're in the US, you support Obama for President??)  Wink

IamME... Have you ever bothered to read the Covenant of Hamas??

Quote from: IamMe
expulsion... 

And I'm assuming your can back that up with facts "IamMe"??  lol

Quote
...from their own land...
Here we go again... Now it was "their own land"??  And I suppose you can back that up too...right "IamMe"??  lol  (rhetorical... don't bother... lol)

You apparently don't even know the most basic of facts regarding this situation... Sounds like you've been reading too much biased propaganda, without bothering to do any homework on your own... Try it sometime... You might actually learn something.  Wink

Are you familiar with how the state of Israel was established in the first place?
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realityman
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« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 12:35:23 PM »

Are you familiar with how the state of Israel was established in the first place?

LOL... Actually "IamMe", I'm very familiar with it... BUT I'm more interested in hearing your version  Wink
 (let me guess, you're now going to repost Palestinian propaganda which brushes over facts with unsupported generalities and conclusions??  Wink)

Try explaining in your own words "IamMe"

Curious also is how you didn't bother to back up any of your previous statements I called into questions... Wink

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IamMe
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« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 01:18:40 PM »

Are you familiar with how the state of Israel was established in the first place?

LOL... Actually "IamMe", I'm very familiar with it... BUT I'm more interested in hearing your version  Wink
 (let me guess, you're now going to repost Palestinian propaganda which brushes over facts with unsupported generalities and conclusions??  Wink)

Try explaining in your own words "IamMe"

Curious also is how you didn't bother to back up any of your previous statements I called into questions... Wink

Well, in (very) brief. In the late 1800s Jews began to move into the region mostly based on Zionist ideals. The British took over the region, assisted by Zionist soldiers. In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home". At this time, of course, the population was still mostly Arab. In 1948 an independent Jewish State was declared as the mandate ran out and the Arab-Israeli war took place. During the war 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, or about 80% of the Arab population, fled the country. Egypt took Gaza and Jordan took the West Bank.
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« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 02:58:55 PM »

Are you familiar with how the state of Israel was established in the first place?

LOL... Actually "IamMe", I'm very familiar with it... BUT I'm more interested in hearing your version  Wink
 (let me guess, you're now going to repost Palestinian propaganda which brushes over facts with unsupported generalities and conclusions??  Wink)

Try explaining in your own words "IamMe"

Curious also is how you didn't bother to back up any of your previous statements I called into questions... Wink

Well, in (very) brief. In the late 1800s Jews began to move into the region mostly based on Zionist ideals. The British took over the region, assisted by Zionist soldiers. In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home". At this time, of course, the population was still mostly Arab. In 1948 an independent Jewish State was declared as the mandate ran out and the Arab-Israeli war took place. During the war 711,000 Arabs, according to UN estimates, or about 80% of the Arab population, fled the country. Egypt took Gaza and Jordan took the West Bank.

Good "IamMe"... You did fairly well, BUT YOU DID brush over and ignore some very important and "telling" facts... Didn't you??

Yes, "In the late 1800s Jews began to move into the region mostly based on Zionist ideals".... And WHO's territory was it then??  Hint, it didn't belong to a group calling themselves "Palestinians"... nor was it under Arab rule or control at all.  (Another hint), it had been under this groups control for almost 400 years at that time, which is far longer than the United States has been in existence (for perspective).

And Yes: "In 1922, the League of Nations granted the United Kingdom a mandate over Palestine for the express purpose of "placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home".  You might also note that there was NO MENTION in the Palestine Mandate of establishing a second Arab nation (2nd to Jordan, which would consist of 77% of the Palestine Mandate, and on which Jews were forbidden to settle).  There was also no mention in the document of "Palestinians"(as they're known today).
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/palmanda.htm

"At this time, of course, the population was still mostly Arab", Again TRUE, though you should note that those Arabs weren't recognized as "seperate" culturally or politically from Arabs in Jordan, Syria, or any of the other surrounding Arab/Muslim nations/regions. And more importantly, they did not rule or control the land they occupied. They were subjects/citizens of a regime who had a long history of authority/rule in that territory (in a way, like Mississippians in the US), "Palestine" wasn't even recognized as a Province on it's own, but parts of 3 provinces which extended also to other territories...

"In 1948 an independent Jewish State was declared as the mandate ran out and the Arab-Israeli war took place"... Now here you have to slow down just a bit, as you're ignoring/side-stepping some very important and relevant, and "telling" facts:

- YES, the mandate ran out, but aren't you forgetting a very significant action taken by the United Nations prior to Israel declaring their state??
Resolution 181 was passed... offering Israel/the Jews a sliver of land far less than initially proposed... And the Arabs were offered autonomy on the rest of what remained of Palestine (after Jordan (77%) was taken off)....
Israel accepted the resolution, the Arabs rejected the resolution in defiance of the UN.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/res181.htm

And YES, "the Arab-Israeli war took place"...but "took place" dodges the impact of the details of what actually happened... In more detailed terms, the newly formed state of Israel was attacked by several of it's Arab/Muslim neighbors.  It should be noted, that a "Palestinian Arab army" was not among them, as there was, at the time, no such thing as a Palestinian Army.  The stated objective of their attack, was the destruction of Israel.

And YES, many Arabs "fled" the country.... BUT THAT'S CLEARLY NOT THE SAME AS WHAT YOU STATED BEFORE... What you stated before was "their expulsion"...

Israel fully admits, and did long again, that some Arabs were expelled or pushed out, as happens in any war... But the majority of evidence I've seen clearly points the the overwhelming majority of Arabs leaving on their own, often at the urging of their own who were invading.  We also shouldn't forget WHO was instigating the war, causing the flighte.  Israel had just accepted Resolution 181, accepted the terms and borders drawn, while the Arabs rejected this in defiance of the UN and elected instead the verdict of war... a war they lost not once, but several times.

And YES... "Egypt took Gaza and Jordan took the West Bank"  We might noticed how you didn't state "the Palestinians took the West Bank and/or Gaza.... And couldn't we argue that Egypt "taking" Gaza and Jordan "taking" the West Bank was really more of an "occupation", as the same UN you referred to with you "fled" numbers never recognized those "occupations"??

So based on what we know, maybe you'd like to reword your previous statement of assumptions (??)
Quote from: IamMe
...their expulsion from their own land
... or back them up with some facts I'm possibly not aware of??


« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 03:24:04 PM by realityman » Logged
Cass
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« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 03:18:34 PM »

ROTFL, realityman, is a test on the history of Israel according to your version now a requirement to posting information or opinions on the current state? 

How far back do you really want to go? The Bible is a pretty good history and pre-history though it was translated by primarily
Roman Catholics. And those who watch the History Channel also can get some very valuable information regarding the region
especially the programs related to the archaeology and the different tribes, claiming relationship to David.  A google will provide the history of the region from a number of different perspectives. 

Could it be that other than recent written history, usually provided and written  by the winners in wars, it is all relative to one's personal perceptions.  I would suggest so, but in your arrogance, you have chosen to insist that yours is the only answer. 
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« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2008, 05:53:30 PM »

ROTFL, realityman, is a test on the history of Israel according to your version...

My "version"??...

That statement would assume that YOU are anxious to show something I stated as being incorrect or factually inaccurate..Yet you didn't point anything specific out... So please "Cass".. Exactly which "personal perceptions" of mine are you finding to be factually incorrect??

How far do I want to go back??  Roman Catholics?  History Channel??, David??  I don't believe I brought any of that up... but if you feel it's somehow relevant to the topic/statement from "IamMe" I was countering, go right ahead (??)

You might also note, I never stated or "insisted" that mine "is the only answer" (as you claim)... but I do base my "personal perceptions" on facts and logical conclusions drawn from them.... And when I see conclusions which don't seem to match up with generally known facts, I point them out and back up my contentions...??  Again, if you've found a factual error in something I've stated, or have something of value to add... go right ahead... Isn't that why most of us are here??
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 06:24:52 PM by realityman » Logged
Cass
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« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2008, 07:24:46 PM »

Actually, realityman, I believe if you read the treads on most of the issues related to the ME in general, but specifically those related to Israel you'll find that most contain far more personal opinion devoid of specific relationships to history or history as the individual poster choose to see it. 

Personally, I find your arrogance and demands that others should comply with your versions by demanding that others express what you  claim to be the history of the region offensive.  I suspect others do as well.

We who participate on this forum come, from what I've observed, a variety of locations as well as personal world views. It is apparent that questioning you on any level opens  the questioner to a diatribe with demands that other member in some satisfactory manner,  prove to you they have enough knowledge to even speak their mind on the issue in question.

My opinion of your response and also your attempt to with your demands silence dissent of others whose opinions conflict with yours. Take it or leave it. I haven't any intention to comply with your demands. It isn't necessary nor IMO required.

You have your opinions about the circumstances as they currently exist in Israel, I have mine and so did IamMe.  So I will continue to post my opinions or also post information from a variety of sources as I did previously and asked if others could
decipher the information regarding this specific issue as it was posted on the Israeli DEBKAfile site. 

 

 

 
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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2008, 04:23:38 AM »

... I haven't any intention to comply with your demands. It isn't necessary nor IMO required....

ROTFL Cass (Isn't that how you started??  lol)

So in other words, you want to point out that what I've stated is somehow "my version", but don't want to point out anything I've stated to be factually incorrect.

Thanks  Wink

In reference to the Debka file, which I previously posted (but was blocked as SPAM do to links):

Quote from: Cass
Anyone want to take a shot at attempting to decipher this post today on DEBKAfile?  Is this an attempt at some kind of truce?
It is confusing to say the least....
http://www.debka.com/headline_print.php?hid=5336


Agreed... It seems to be "penned" by someone who's possibly jumping the gun a bit, and doesn't seem to be clear in the point or points he's trying to get across (??).. And I'm also detecting a bit a hard-lined bias in the writing...

As it seems the author didn't bother to sign it (at least I'm not finding reference to an author), that the author sites obscure sources which can't be easily checked, I wouldn't make too much of this article (especially since it seems unclear of exactly what he/she is trying to say... lol)... MORE IMPORTANTLY, I can't seem to find references of a similar nature elsewhere where you would think they might by... (Haaretz, Jerusalem Post, etc).

The only references I've found of a similar nature only refer to Israel deciding not to immediately go after Hamas in Gaza... opting instead to attempt to give other options a chance


Quote
Israel says will give Gaza truce talks a chance

...Israel said on Wednesday it would support efforts by Egypt to reach a truce in the Gaza Strip but instructed the army to prepare for possible military action in the Hamas-controlled territory if mediation failed...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080611/wl_nm/palestinians_israel_dc_4;_ylt=AvsZ.usQHSdt3lQw9JWgYPcUvioA

« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 04:27:46 AM by realityman » Logged
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