realityman
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« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2008, 11:45:59 AM » |
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Happy Independence Day, realityman! In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988.
And a happy Independence Day to you as well Cass... The United States Declaration of Independence: http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/index.htmThe Covenant of Hamas: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htmThat you might believe that The US Declaration of Independence is "not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988"...is quite humorous... And clearly exposes what I've suggested before... that you're seeing only what you want to see, and ignoring the rest.Have you ever actually READ the Covenant of Hamas Cass?? If so, were you heavily medicated when doing so  ??  How many statements and ideals from the Covenant of Hamas do you seemingly have to purposely ignore to even suggest that the US Declaration of Independence is ""not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988"?? lol But let me guess Cass, this is one of those "opinions" that you feel compelled to express, but don't want to rationally support or defend?? And you wonder why your "liberal ideals", aren't taken seriously.  |
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 12:51:51 PM by realityman »
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IamMe
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« Reply #61 on: July 04, 2008, 12:43:17 PM » |
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The election speaks loudly toward what the Palestinian people think..., And this explains why they never seem to miss and opportunity to miss an opportunity for peace. In the US, if you elect the Ku Klux Klan, YOU GET the Ku Klux Klan.... Maybe this logic doesn't apply in Palestine (??)
The Covenant of Hamas... The founding documentation detailing the agenda, goals, and modus operandi of this group the people of Palestine elected:
So is it your belief that in a democracy civilians are a legitimate target for military operations? If we were to apply that across the board it would also justify 9/11. Also, Realityman, I have read over some of your earlier posts (which, I must admit, I skimmed first-time round). Firstly, there is no evidence that Hamas have actually violated the ceasefire. Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade have fired rockets, but not Hamas. Hamas has so far stuck to its word, unless you are suggesting that it was really them firing the rockets. But you would need evidence to back up such a claim, rather than just innuendo. Secondly, Hamas cannot be expected to confront (with force, presumably) other militant groups who are on their side. That is simply not a realistic demand. Thirdly, one passage from one of your quotes says: “Also on Tuesday, Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, a London-based Arabic-language daily, quoted Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as saying that if the smuggling of weapons into Gaza does not cease, Israel will consider the cease-fire agreement violated, and will be forced to respond militarily. Hamas has said it will not stop smuggling weapons.” Here, Israel is the one threatening to end the ceasefire. Presumably, Isreal is free to continue importing arms while Hamas must stop smuggling bottle rockets (or whatever it is they are using now) – hardly a fair or reasonable demand. This passage, from another report, is also interesting. I note that it wasn't one of the bolded passages: “Since the Hamas takeover, more than 400 Palestinians, including dozens of civilians, and seven Israelis have been killed in tit-for-tat fighting....“ This too is interesting: “in a text message sent to reporters, [the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade] said "the truce must include the West Bank and all sorts of aggression must stop",“ which sounds reasonable enough to me, even though I deplore the way they highlighted the demand. Also, to suggest that the bulldozer incident is a terrorist attack is highly disingenuous. We had a rather similar incident in Irealnd with a bus not so long ago – one woman was killed – but it was not a terrorist incident. In fact there is no evidence to connect the bulldozer driver with terrorism. Since he was executed on the spot by Israeli police we will never know. Finally, I have seen no reports about whether or not any negotiations are taking /have taken place. Are they? If not, why not? |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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IamMe
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« Reply #62 on: July 04, 2008, 12:48:28 PM » |
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An occupation would be OK in the short term if Israel could do it without murdering a bunch of innocent people.
Occupy to send them flowers you say? I would happily attend with flowers to their funeral. No, there are a whole world of possibilities in between doing nothing and killing civilians. But they have never done that and have no intention of doing so. Israel punishes the Palestinians for voting for Hamas, and everyone knows it. Israel pushes Palestinians in general otherwise there would not be a place called Israel by now. Arabs are happily killing each other instead of having proper government that can communicate with Israeli government. Who am I to interrupt those innocent victims of blood thirsty Jews. If Israel did not punish the Palestinians there would be a peaceful place called Israel now, as well as a peaceful place called Palestine. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Cass
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« Reply #63 on: July 04, 2008, 12:58:11 PM » |
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Actually, realityman, I accidently hit post without completing my statement. I've continued and this is the total post. Happy Independence Day, realityman! In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to some factors of the Hamas Charter of 1988. And even in some ways resembles the new Constitution of the Islamic State of Iraq. Two groups of Semitic peoples, but with different religious beliefs, just over sixty years ago based on an edict from the United Nations, had that territory divided and the State of Israel was established. Still after sixty years of existence as a state, Israel is still one of a small minority of nations, with no official codified constitution. Historically, the Knesset appears to make law as they go along, depending on the philosophy of which political party is in power at the time of the creation and ratification of law by majority vote. I would suggest governments over time evolve. Ours has. The U.S.Constitution, later established as the primary law of the land has evolved. The U.S. Constitution now twenty seven amendments. While the U.N. established the State of Israel, the State continues to ignore other U.N. resolutions at will. Particularly those of 242 and 338. The consequence remains the continuation of asymetrical warfare which appears to have no end in sight. While some continue to insist as the U.S. did that the election of Hamas was not legitimate, others disagree. Interestingly, the same is true related in the U.S. to the election and re-election of George W. Bush, though the inaugurations and now almost eight years have passed since both the first and second ones took place. While personally, I can't enter the mind of those who supported, and continue support, the policies and practices that have occurred during the Bush Administration, neither can I understand the choices made in 2006 by those Palestinians who chose to elect Hamas. But I suspect it had to do with the continual settlements advocated and supported by the Israeli government on lands designated Palestinian along with the undeniable suffering of the Palestinian people as a result of Israeli domination along with the social services provided by Hamas which have attempted to alleviate some of the daily aspects of daily life in the territories. We fought a revolutionary war and later a civil war. Could that be what is occurring today between the Israeli and U.S. supported Fatah and the support of many Palestinian people for Hamas? While some continue to ignore some of those realities in their support of Israel, I've made an attempt to look at both sides of this picture which leads me to continue to question if Israel has any real intention of eventually complying with international law, other than on a selective basis, which continues to benefit those in Israel and those of the diaspora who are the beneficiaries of Zionist Israeli policies. Will as a political entity Hamas evolve? Will there be changes in the Israeli governmental parties who are currently in power? I honestly don't know, but I don't deny the possibility. And each Passover, there continues to be the shared statement though it seemed more relevant to Moses than today's American Jews, or those in my family, "Next year in Jerusalem." In reality this appears to be the case for the statement ending each sedar every year with Passover. "Ended is the Passover seder, according to custom, statute and law. As we were worthy to celebrate it this year, so may we perform it in future years. Oh pure one in heaven above, restore the congregation of Israel in your love. Speedily lead your people to Zion in joy. Next year in Jerusalem! In Judaism, Jerusalem is a metaphor for a perfect world. Jews face Jerusalem when they pray, and every synagogue in the world faces Jerusalem. By saying "Next Year in Jerusalem" at the end of the Seder, we are not making a political or even physical statement. We are noting our hope to be redeemed and live in a perfect world. After all, this is what the Seder is about - commemorating God's redemption of the Israelites and moving closer to our own redemption." http://judaism.about.com/od/passover/ss/pesach_seder_10.htmThough the physical impossibility of the statement is evident and it is accepted by most, it seems for those Zionists in the Israeli government it still rings true as more than a shared statement at the end of the Seder as the settlements continue to be expanded in defiance of international law. realityman, you asked, I answered. It is opinion and in the end has no more value than yours does since neither of us can control the actions of the Israeli government nor Hamas. BTW, I'm departing to continue to prepare an Independence Day dinner. Though unlike Cryptomaniac, you may not be celebrating today, as you may not be in the U.S.,we will and hope we can retain the sentiments Jefferson provided. At times we wonder if perhaps that independence has been usurped by a new form of despotism. |
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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realityman
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« Reply #64 on: July 04, 2008, 01:55:17 PM » |
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So is it your belief that in a democracy civilians are a legitimate target for military operations?
OF COURSE NOT... WHERE "IamMe"... Did I state or imply anything of the kind?? (let me guess, you're going to ignore that request) You're apparently in your "own reality" Firstly, there is no evidence that Hamas have actually violated the ceasefire. Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade have fired rockets, but not Hamas. Hamas has so far stuck to its word, That actually WOULD BE a good point... IF that was the terms of the ceasefire... BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE... The cease fire was negotiated with Hamas AS the controlling entity/power in Gaza.... While the terms of the cease fire has many holes in it (arms smuggling penalties being one)..The terms of the cease were clear in calling for call for Hamas to ensure an end to cross-border shelling from the territory (Gaza). WHO is doing the shelling is irrelevant in terms of the cease fire agreement... That shelling is still occurring (whether by Hamas or any of the numerous other factions) constitute a violation. THIS is why Hamas is now acting/talking of restraining/policing these groups... THAT BEING SAID... Israel is exercising restraint allowing Hamas an opportunity to get the other groups under control, but if the rockets don't stop, the restraint won't go on forever. http://www.bicom.org.uk/news/news-archive/bicom-analysis--the-gaza-ceasefire---small-opportunity-amidst-growing-threatsSecondly, Hamas cannot be expected to confront (with force, presumably) other militant groups who are on their side. That is simply not a realistic demand. So in other words, the group "supposedly" in charge, can't be expected to confront those breaking the rules supposedly under their charge?? So who then IS in charge "IamMe"?? Who then is to police these groups IamMe??... So if a branch of the Israeli military attacked militants in Gaza... And Israel said (basically)... Hey,... it's not our fault... we can't be expected to control them... You'd "buy it" IamMe?? Of course not. Thirdly, one passage from one of your quotes says:
“Also on Tuesday, Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, a London-based Arabic-language daily, quoted Prime Minister Ehud Olmert as saying that if the smuggling of weapons into Gaza does not cease, Israel will consider the cease-fire agreement violated, and will be forced to respond militarily. Hamas has said it will not stop smuggling weapons.”
Here, Israel is the one threatening to end the ceasefire. Presumably, Isreal is free to continue importing arms while Hamas must stop smuggling bottle rockets (or whatever it is they are using now) – hardly a fair or reasonable demand. What you consider "fair and reasonable" to you, isn't as important as the history of Hamas (and other militant groups) arms smuggling which then are used purposely against the Israeli civilian population... This is Israel's main issue of concern with this, and every previous ceasefire agreed to with various Palestinian groups... The ceasefire, as I previously mentioned, left many wide open holes... One of those holes was Hamas arms smuggling... Egypt, for it's part, agreed to greatly step up it's intervention efforts against Hamas arms smuggling... And Israel has made it very clear that if the arms smuggling isn't greatly reduced, Israel could and mostlikely would consider it a breach of the ceasefire.... And that's where the issue stands. |
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 02:35:06 PM by realityman »
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realityman
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« Reply #65 on: July 04, 2008, 02:08:24 PM » |
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Actually, realityman, I accidently hit post without completing my statement. I've continued and this is the total post....
Fair enough Cass... So to take one issue at a time, is the statement I responded to (and reposted below) one you're willing to stand behind and back up/support with facts and logic ?? ....In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988.
The United States Declaration of Independence: http://www.ushistory.org/Declaration/document/index.htmThe Covenant of Hamas: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm |
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Cass
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« Reply #66 on: July 04, 2008, 03:26:40 PM » |
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Multi-tasking continues for the moment, but in your typical zeal to damn any and all who don't agree with your Zionist influenced opinions, the true comparison between Jefferson's Declaration of Independence and Hamas' Charter 0f 1988, is they are both very radical documents about throwing off the yoke of oppression. Both suggest the removal of despots and the use of military tactics to do so. Reality check, King George and his armies on the continent, considered the Continental army little more than terrorists and the methodology chosen by many was not all that different from some used by Palestinians or others branded as terrorists. Some might say the militiamen at Concord and Lexington were on what might be termed a "suicide" mission, still in the end that battle was won by the Colonists who were willing to face a well armed and well trained very formidable enemy. But back to the question posed on this thread. Fatah is the political entity associated with both the U.S. and Israel and the chosen representative of both though not of the Palestinians. My comments remain, related to the answer to the question. Unfortunately, the Palestinians chose Hamas and both the U.S. and Israel, as IamMe stated truthfully, have punished ordinary Palestinians because they didn't go along with the Israeli and U.S. choice. Review the question. I agree those innocents on the other side of the border from Gaza should not be subjected to continual raining down on them by missiles, but then if there is ever to be any realistic settlement, Israel must accept Hamas as the legitmately elected leadership and end their asymetric war against them with the use of inhumane actions, accomplished most often, with weaponry supplied by the U.S., and negotiate directly even with the possibility of the U.S. refusal to continue to provide both weaponry and some semblance of an umbrella of security though it is questionable exactly how much security is provided. As Terry Mathis suggested, Israel appears to be quite capable of providing her own security. It is because of the interference of both the U.S. and a number of other Arab nations like the U.S. ally, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. enemy Iran, any realistic possibility for rational negotiations continues IMO. I would also suggest a simple review of this article from the BBC in 2007 presents a far more realistic picture than you choose to regarding both Hamas and Fatah. Palestinian rivals: Fatah & Hamas Two parties dominate Palestinian politics: Fatah which has been at the head of the Palestinian national movement since the 1950s, and the Islamist movement, Hamas, which won the parliamentary elections in January 2006. FATAH Full name: Reverse acronym of Harakat al-Tahrir al-Filistiniya (Palestinian Liberation Movement) meaning "conquest" in Arabic. Origins and development: Founded by Yasser Arafat in the 1950s to promote the armed struggle to liberate all Palestine from Israeli control. It developed into the largest Palestinian political faction and, after recognising Israel's right to exist, led efforts towards a two-state solution with Israel under the 1990s Oslo peace accords. Fatah members formed the backbone of the Oslo-inspired administration, the Palestinian Authority (PA), especially its bureaucrats and security forces. The party lost power in the 2006 parliamentary elections to Hamas, after Fatah officials came to be perceived as corrupt and incompetent. The shift in power heralded a period of violence on the streets of Gaza. Attitude to Israel: PA President Mahmoud Abbas advocates restarting the peace process and is a strong critic of armed "resistance" and attacks on Israeli civilians. His goal is to establish a Palestinian state in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as capital. The Fatah-affiliated al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades has participated, along with Hamas, in an informal militant ceasefire since 2005, but conducts what it calls retaliatory attacks against Israel. Current status: The 2006 election defeat put Fatah on the defensive and subsequent events raised fears it would try using its political influence and military power to maintain predominance. The PA's 70,000 police and security forces are mainly Fatah loyalists. After months of factional street fighting in which hundreds of Palestinians were killed, Fatah struck a deal with Hamas to join a unity government as a junior partner. Palestinian Authority President and Fatah leader Mahmoud Abbas dismissed the Hamas-led government in June 2007 in the wake of some of the worst fighting that resulted in the Gaza Strip being seized by the Hamas armed forces in what the movement described as a "liberation". A new emergency cabinet has been sworn in in the West Bank, led by Prime Minister Salam Fayyad. HAMAS Full name: Acronym for Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement) and means "zeal" in Arabic. Origins and development: Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, committed to establishing an Islamic state in the whole of what it terms Palestine (post-1948 Israel, the West Bank and Gaza). Since its formation 1987 it has pursued a dual function: social welfare and what it calls armed resistance. This earned respect and gratitude among Palestinians suffering under Israeli occupation, but a string of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians meant it was designated a terrorist organisation by Israel, the US and the European Union. Its 2006 landslide win thrust on Hamas the responsibility of power and international scrutiny for the first time, but the government was not recognised by Israel or the main international mediators. Attitude to Israel: Hamas's charter uncompromisingly seeks Israel's destruction. However, Hamas's Ismail Haniya, the prime minister of the unity government until it was dissolved in June 2007, has spoken of a long-term truce with Israel if Israel withdraws from territory occupied in 1967. The Hamas armed wing, the Izzedine al-Qassam brigades, has participated in an informal ceasefire since 2005, but claims the right to retaliate against what it calls Israeli attacks. Current status: Designated a terrorist group by PA donors, outside funds to the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority dried up. Banks refused to handle emergency donations fearing US penalties. After months of wrangling with Fatah, Hamas became the senior partner in a national unity government in March 2007. But separately, it deployed a 3,000-strong shadow security force including its supporters to tackle lawlessness in Gaza. The move exacerbated tensions with pro-Fatah security agencies sparking a major show-down with Fatah. Mr Haniya appears to be in charge in Gaza - Mr Abbas in the West Bank. The ousted prime minister insists his sacking is illegal - as is the Fayyad cabinet, which cannot get approval in the Hamas-dominated Palestinian parliament but which is to rule by decree. Story from BBC NEWS: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5016012.stmPublished: 2007/06/17 11:32:58 GMT |
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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realityman
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« Reply #67 on: July 04, 2008, 04:29:47 PM » |
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Multi-tasking continues for the moment, but in your typical zeal to damn any and all who don't agree with your Zionist influenced opinions,
the true comparison between Jefferson's Declaration of Independence and Hamas' Charter 0f 1988, is they are both very radical documents about throwing off the yoke of oppression. Both suggest the removal of despots and the use of military tactics to do so....
lol... That is very weak, and you know it Cass. " typical zeal to damn any and all who don't agree with your Zionist influenced opinions,"?? lol I asked you a direct question related to a statement YOU made... I asked you: ... is the statement I responded to (and reposted below) one you're willing to stand behind and back up/support with facts and logic ?? (apparently not, but you want to diffuse the issue and hoped that posting a long article would help everyone forget that you didn't give a direct response to supporting YOUR OWN WORDS. ....In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988. Where are the facts and logic?? What statements in the Declaration of Independence call for the destruction of another nation??Clearly you're running from that which you prefer not to see., trying to play the "equate" game.... Maybe you're thinking... If you can equate the Covenant of Hamas to the Declaration of Independence, and get away with it without anyone noticing that you haven't really backed that contention up, than Hamas might not be viewed as so bad.... Think it's working Cass?? lolThe Declaration of Independence is about FOUNDING/ESTABLISHING A NATION... The Covenant of Hamas focuses on destroying one (BIG DIFFERENCE, In case you didn't notice).... You're ventured beyond the absurd at this point Cass. I anxiously await your quotes from the Declaration of Independence that compare to the violent, nation destroying ideals expressed in the Covenant of Hamas... Hamas, in their own words... The Covenant of Hamas: ...Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (basically, Israel will exist until Hamas destroys it) ....This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
....The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... (In other words, their goal is to take "every inch", which means, no Israel) ....The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? (In other words, they want it ALL... ALL of Palestine, which means no Israel) .... This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement. (In other words, it seems OK for Moslems to conquer lands, but apparently not anyone else... lol) .... Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. (In other words, NO PEACE DEALS WITH ISRAEL...) ....There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. (Again, no peace deals... just "jihad") ....liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be.. (In other words, destroy Israel) ....The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters. (In other words, destroy Israel... And get every Moslem involved in the fight against Israel)
....It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis... (self explanatory) (And it goes on and on... I think everyone should get the general idea by now) http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm....In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988. Do you have even ONE quote from the Declaration of Independence which compares to the above from the Covenant of Hamas Cass?? Was the US seeking to destroy and take over England?? Were they making the destruction of England the duty of every American?? BUT APPARENTLY TO YOU, The Declaration of Independence is "not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988" lol But I'm sure that you Cass... can point out those "damning" bloodthirsty statements in the Declaration of Independence I seem to have missed... |
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 04:47:11 PM by realityman »
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Cass
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« Reply #68 on: July 04, 2008, 05:29:36 PM » |
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realityman, you interpret each and every statement to suit your position and ignore others. Maybe it's time again to provide you with some more pedantic definitions as you could obviously use them. Your full of it if you think I would bother to take the time to argue each and every point of comparison between the Hamas Covenant and the
Declaration of Independence, and you have no ability to do so as you are unable to even consider any factor of relevant comparison. Your not worth the time or effort. You have one singular opinion and refuse to even consider the reality of any others. Independence can mean different things, but freedom of a people is relevant to both those in the U.S. in 1776 and is no different from the Palestinians of today, other than there was an ocean between King George and the Colonies in N. America rather than walls.
The eyes of the beholder is also quite relevant, but in seeing only a singular view you remain blind as well as clearly drowning in your personal hatred which is disgustingly obvious.
My dinner guests are arriving in only a few minutes. I plan to enjoy their company. Even some American Jews find me good company. Wonder how they would feel about you? Have a nice evening and consider the question of the thread if you can avoid drowning in your own bile.
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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realityman
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« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2008, 08:27:50 PM » |
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realityman, you interpret each and every statement to suit your position and ignore others. Maybe it's time again to provide you with some more pedantic definitions as you could obviously use them. Your full of it if you think I would bother to take the time to argue each and every point of comparison between the Hamas Covenant and the Declaration of Independence,
LOL... In other words Cass... You want to make the ridiculous analogy/statement... BUT when it comes time to backing it up, you'd rather move on to another topic.... Thanks for making that example so clear to the forum... YOU made the statement: ....In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988. I didn't ask you to argue "each and every point"... I asked you to back up YOUR statement... NOT something I said...or someone else said... BUT SOMETHING YOU SAID... Apparently you want to be able to make your statements... spread your off-base liberal ideals... but when it comes time to supporting them or backing them up, uhhhh...you'd rather not.... Imagine that. I posted several excerpts from the Covenant of Hamas and stated: Do you have even ONE quote from the Declaration of Independence which compares to the above from the Covenant of Hamas Cass?? Was the US seeking to destroy and take over England?? Were they making the destruction of England the duty of every American?? BUT APPARENTLY TO YOU, The Declaration of Independence is "not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988" lol I'm glad you can be counted on to back up/support your own statements, or to admit when you may have mis-spoken (waiting  )..... I wonder how seriously the average educated person... educated on Hamas and the Middle East.. would view the value of the opinions of one who would state or attempt to imply that the US Declaration of Independence is " not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988"?? Hmmm (I certainly can only speak for myself ) That you may not like a fact or situation, doesn't change it or make it not so... The Hamas Covenant clearly expresses the views and ideals of Hamas... You might want to read it sometime, and attempt to understand/comprehend it's agenda. They've really made themselves very clear.... It might help you get a better grip on the "realities" of why things are happening they way they do in that region.. Again...for the forum's education... Hamas, in their own words... Excepts from The Covenant of Hamas... The same Covenant "Cass" implied was "not all that different" from the US Declaration of Independence...: ...Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (basically, Israel will exist until Hamas destroys it) ....This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
....The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... (In other words, their goal is to take "every inch", which means, no Israel) ....The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? (In other words, they want it ALL... ALL of Palestine, which means no Israel) .... This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement. (In other words, it seems OK for Moslems to conquer lands, but apparently not anyone else... lol) .... Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. (In other words, NO PEACE DEALS WITH ISRAEL...) ....There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. (Again, no peace deals... just "jihad") ....liberation of Palestine is then an individual duty for very Moslem wherever he may be.. (In other words, destroy Israel) ....The day that enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised. To do this requires the diffusion of Islamic consciousness among the masses, both on the regional, Arab and Islamic levels. It is necessary to instill the spirit of Jihad in the heart of the nation so that they would confront the enemies and join the ranks of the fighters. (In other words, destroy Israel... And get every Moslem involved in the fight against Israel)
....It is necessary to instill in the minds of the Moslem generations that the Palestinian problem is a religious problem, and should be dealt with on this basis... (self explanatory) (And it goes on and on... I think everyone should get the general idea by now) http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm (for the full text) .... AND the text of the Declaration of Independence... for anyone who might want to compare: http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html |
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« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 08:44:28 PM by realityman »
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Cass
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« Reply #70 on: July 05, 2008, 09:35:23 AM » |
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realityman, though the typing related to the topic of this thread has a single typo, the topic along with the poll that began it has long been lost. But the thread and others related to the issues, deadly and destructive, of both the citizens of Israel and the Palestinians territories, Gaza and the West Bank, continue as they have. I have come to
an understanding why so few members of this forum participate on threads related to such issues.
You have no interest in discussing the issue, sharing opinions or even sharing the valid information that might be
provided and added to the discussion. Your sole purpose is to attempt to destroy, primarily with personal insults,
any poster or opinion that disagrees with your hate filled posts about Hamas or any factor related to any actual
comments that might be supportive of any attempt to discuss resolving the issues should they suggest any resolution other than a continuation of the asymetric warfare that has continued since the last major invasion by
a neighbor of Israel which actually took place in the Yom Kippur War of 1973.
Like it or not, Hamas deposed, even with the support of both the U.S. and Israel, in a vote of the Palestinian people, Abbas and Fatah. Eventually, there must be a decision made by the government in Israel, regardless of
political party in power as to how many of their citizens they choose to sacrifice to continue to deny any rightful
solution other than continue to attempt to kill the peoples they haven't been able to remove from the total area
they continue to attempt to settle.
After sixty years of Israel's existence, considerable evolution of the nation has taken place. The reality is the nation is no longer one defending the territory awarded with the partition, but have rather than being in the
defensive position have become aggressors. Neither you nor the far right in Israel nor the U.S. show any realistic
basis for any method to resolve the issues other than continued death and destruction.
The poster of this thread made a number of statements that were worthwhile ones in his question and the poll.
Though neither Fatah, nor the leader of that party, Abbas are no longer the choice of the Palestinian people, perhaps because the realize both are in bed with the Israel government and the Bush Administration in power,
currently, in the U.S.. As a consequence the answer to the question posed is IMO rightly, there is little to be
accomplished by re-invading Gaza for the purpose of attempting to put a party and leader in power who are not
the choice of the people.
Argue away, but at this point as in other threads where your personal hatred of a people is more than obvious,
you will find that you are as on other threads related to this issue, talking to yourself or only sharing a continued
one with Crytomaniac, rather than participating in any way an open discussion. Sayonara, realityman. You're a
waste of time.
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\\"The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dream shall never die.\\" Edward Kennedy, U.S.
Senator
The old lion of the Senate, though a lion in winter, has lived to do more for this nation than John or Bobby though
who knows what life would be like now had they lived.
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mdma
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« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2008, 10:26:28 AM » |
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Pretty much the same lines i've heard from you and others like you.
Point is you ( personally ) never discuss but blame one side when others opposite you showing you that other side is to blame. What's wrong with that? You not for once used shameful methods of expressing your hate towards Jews in Israel why wouldn't the realityman attack you? Because you attacking whole nation and he attacks one person?
Since very first moment you came here you never discussed a damn thing with all other nicknames you had. The one and only is anti-Israeli BS on higher intellectual level than Untouchables has. No offense but she is an Arab. Deep there you are no different.
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mdma
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« Reply #72 on: July 05, 2008, 10:35:32 AM » |
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My dinner guests are arriving in only a few minutes. I plan to enjoy their company. Even some American Jews find me good company.
keepin yer enemies around ye? smart kraut! |
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realityman
Full Member
Karma: +26/-10
Posts: 204
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« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2008, 11:44:27 AM » |
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realityman, you interpret each and every statement to suit your position and ignore others. Maybe it's time again to provide ....
In other words here you go again... running away from YOUR OWN WORDS... As, YOU Cass, can't be counted on to back up your own words/statements, of what value is a discussion of related issues with you??.. YOU made the statement: ....In the U.S. we celebrate the day the rather radical document, primarily provided to us by Thomas Jefferson, was adopted by the Continental Congress. In some ways, other than the fealty to Islam, not all that different to the Hamas Charter of 1988. I didn't ask you to argue "each and every point"... I asked you to back up YOUR statement... NOT something I said...or someone else said... BUT SOMETHING YOU SAID... Apparently you want to be able to make your statements... spread your off-base liberal ideals... but when it comes time to supporting them or backing them up, uhhhh...you'd rather not.... Imagine that. ...your personal hatred of a people is more than obvious, you will find that you are as on other threads related to this issue, talking to yourself or only sharing a continued one with Crytomaniac, rather than participating in any way an open discussion. Sayonara, realityman. You're awaste of time. LOL... That's really funny coming from a person who won't stand behind or back up her own words... Seems you're embarrassed by being put on the spot ... by being made to be accountable for your own words and opinions. Imagine that... actually having to stand behind what you say?? I know it's a novel concept in the liberal "idealist" world... lol.. Can't really blame you for being embarrassed after this latest display but apparently I'm the " waste of time"?? lol |
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« Last Edit: July 05, 2008, 12:01:29 PM by realityman »
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IamMe
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« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2008, 12:18:02 PM » |
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OF COURSE NOT... WHERE "IamMe"... Did I state or imply anything of the kind?? (let me guess, you're going to ignore that request) You're apparently in your "own reality"
What you said was that “The election speaks loudly toward what the Palestinian people think“ - that “The Palestinian people elected [Hamas], seemingly expressing what agenda they (as a group/people) support“ and that consequently they should not be surprised with what they get. If you say that you didn't mean by this that the Palestinians deserve what they got (or something along those lines) then I will accept your word and apologize. However, in that case, why exactly was the election relevant to the discussion? Why did you mention it at all? That actually WOULD BE a good point...IF that was the terms of the ceasefire... BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE... The cease fire was negotiated with Hamas AS the controlling entity/power in Gaza.... While the terms of the cease fire has many holes in it (arms smuggling penalties being one)..The terms of the cease were clear in calling for call for Hamas to ensure an end to cross-border shelling from the territory (Gaza). WHO is doing the shelling is irrelevant in terms of the cease fire agreement... That shelling is still occurring (whether by Hamas or any of the numerous other factions) constitute a violation. THIS is why Hamas is now acting/talking of restraining/policing these groups... THAT BEING SAID... Israel is exercising restraint allowing Hamas an opportunity to get the other groups under control, but if the rockets don't stop, the restraint won't go on forever.
Well, Israel must be commended for exercising restraint, so long as it is not just so they can say “Look at all this restraint we exercised and it didn't work, lets go commit some atrocities.” If we can return to the bulldozer incident for a moment, which you misleadingly brought up, and then ignored my reply, one thing I forgot to mention is that the bulldozer driver was an Israeli Arab working legally in Israel and therefore was the responsibility of the Israeli police and not of Hamas. In other words, it had nothing to do with the ceasefire, and to bring it into the discussion was highly dishonest. Do you concede that, or will you just ignore this again? So in other words, the group "supposedly" in charge, can't be expected to confront those breaking the rules supposedly under their charge?? So who then IS in charge "IamMe"?? Who then is to police these groups IamMe??... So if a branch of the Israeli military attacked militants in Gaza... And Israel said (basically)... Hey,... it's not our fault... we can't be expected to control them... You'd "buy it" IamMe?? Of course not.
No, because the Israeli army is roughly equivalent to Hamas – i.e. it is a singly cohesive body, like Hamas. If a group of militant Israeli students, say, were to attack militants in Gaza then we would have an analog, and in that case I would say it would not be a sufficient justification to end the ceasefire. What you consider "fair and reasonable" to you, isn't as important as the history of Hamas (and other militant groups) arms smuggling which then are used purposely against the Israeli civilian population... This is Israel's main issue of concern with this, and every previous ceasefire agreed to with various Palestinian groups... The ceasefire, as I previously mentioned, left many wide open holes... One of those holes was Hamas arms smuggling... Egypt, for it's part, agreed to greatly step up it's intervention efforts against Hamas arms smuggling... And Israel has made it very clear that if the arms smuggling isn't greatly reduced, Israel could and mostlikely would consider it a breach of the ceasefire.... And that's where the issue stands.
It is no more reasonable to expect the Palestinians to remain unarmed in the face of (possible) Israeli aggression than it is to expect Israel to do so in the face of possible Palestinian aggression. Of course I want to see Hamas stop smuggling weapons, but that can only reasonably be expected to come after negotiations. To return to Northern Ireland for a moment, the IRA continued to purchase weapons while on ceasefire, yet it was not considered a breach of ceasefire. Oh, and in relation to Cass' comparison of the Declaration of Independence and the Hamas Charter, she didn't say that they were exactly alike in all respects or anything of the sort. She mentioned a number of legitimate points of comparison: both were radical documents about throwing off the yoke of oppression. Both suggest the removal of despots and the use of military tactics to do so. That is factually accurate. Your pedantic rant about how they are not the same is childish and irrelevant point-scoring. I'm not saying I endorse her comparison – I don't care particularly, as I do not share the American obsession with what the founding fathers thought – but your criticism of it is largely irrelevant. |
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\\\\"Anarchism is the ideal to which all societies should approximate\\\\" - Bertrand Russell
If you strike me down I shall become more dead than you can ever imagine.
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Poll
