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Author Topic: Ireland rejects EU consitution  (Read 336 times)
Fredledingue
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« on: June 15, 2008, 02:07:30 PM »

The Irish didn't get it: You don't make a referendum for such a thing, it's bound to fail.
Everybody is proud of their nationality and if you ask The Poeple wether they want to be a little bit less of themselves, they will say "NO" of course.
IMO, the EU affairs are too complicated to ask the opinion of millions of poeple. We live in a democracy and in a democracy you trust your leaders. So if the leaders YOU elected decide to instore an european constitution why opposing it?

Quote from: (Reuters)
BRUSSELS - European Union leaders will press Ireland this week on ways to overcome its rejection of an EU reform treaty, but Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said the bloc must also contribute to a solution.

article
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tadpol
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 06:41:25 AM »

But it seems difficult to understand. Ireland has received a lot of money from Europe, and perhaps that might be one reason, among others, of the wealthy Irish economy.

Ireland has received €56 billion in structural funding from the EU since 1973.

I guess we all agree regarding this point. It is a lot of money, so IMO we must give something in exchange in order to be fair.

Ireland is the second richest country in Europe due, among other reasons, to a special tax system, that has forced many entreprise to move to Ireland because of these benefits on taxes.......I'm not Irish and I don't know how things are going over there, but I'm Spanish and I know for sure what Europe has given us and what we've done with that economic and fiscal aid. My country is better than what it used to be.We've received a lot of money too and our country has grown better in infraestructures, but now we are 27 countries and it's our turn to help others in Europe who are in a worst position than we are.

I mean, since Google set its Europe headquater in Ireland, the US internet company has saved 100 million $...

Do ut des


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thwarting the spamfilter.

I'm not well versed on the EU or Ireland, but I do have a thought and a half.

Is the leadership, or whomever normally approves treaties really behind this development in the EU? Complicated things put to a popular vote almost always fail where I'm from. If my leadership didn't want some law, but didn't want to say that I'd expect something similar to this.

Also I'm a little uncomfortable with the idea that a democracy is about following leaders.
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DIEGO
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 10:08:29 AM »

The Irish didn't get it: You don't make a referendum for such a thing, it's bound to fail.
Everybody is proud of their nationality and if you ask The Poeple wether they want to be a little bit less of themselves, they will say "NO" of course.
IMO, the EU affairs are too complicated to ask the opinion of millions of poeple. We live in a democracy and in a democracy you trust your leaders. So if the leaders YOU elected decide to instore an european constitution why opposing it?

Quote from: (Reuters)
BRUSSELS - European Union leaders will press Ireland this week on ways to overcome its rejection of an EU reform treaty, but Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen said the bloc must also contribute to a solution.

article

In my country, we said "YES" in the previous referendum, just "following our leaders"...


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neorealist
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2008, 06:45:38 PM »

didn't the Irish vote YES on the last EU constitution back in 05?
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Fredledingue
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 01:57:20 PM »

I don't now.

My point is that as long you will ask a certain population to vote, there will be a high chance of "No".
Irish voted because they knew that they were splitted over this topic hence the negative turnout.

Democracy is not following leaders, it's about trusting them for what they do.
And if these leaders say "we must ratify this treaty", you assume that they are right because you know their political program, the promises they have made before being elected and their political color. And more importantly because you choosed them.
If you voted for them, it's not to vote again to go against their decisions.

And the leaders know that if they don't take decision in the interest of the population, they won't rule on the next term.
The problem with a referendum is that the said leaders will follow a decision taken by the population which can be the wrong one but when the negative effect of this decision will surface, the leaders will take the blame.
It's also a sign of weakness, lack of decision taking power.
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DIEGO
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« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2008, 04:32:28 AM »

I don't now.

My point is that as long you will ask a certain population to vote, there will be a high chance of "No".
Irish voted because they knew that they were splitted over this topic hence the negative turnout.

Democracy is not following leaders, it's about trusting them for what they do.
And if these leaders say "we must ratify this treaty", you assume that they are right because you know their political program, the promises they have made before being elected and their political color. And more importantly because you choosed them.
If you voted for them, it's not to vote again to go against their decisions.

And the leaders know that if they don't take decision in the interest of the population, they won't rule on the next term.
The problem with a referendum is that the said leaders will follow a decision taken by the population which can be the wrong one but when the negative effect of this decision will surface, the leaders will take the blame.
It's also a sign of weakness, lack of decision taking power.

Of course we give confidence and support to governments but, IMO, this confidence has to have some limits. In my country one of these limits is written and establishes that a government can't change our constitution without a referendum after resign as government. So, if my government can't change a single word of our constitution by itself why my government must approve a constitution of a higher level by itself? Even more, I found difficult to understand how countries that reject the first constitution presented in a referendum now are approving the Treaty without a new referendum.

I agree with you in the idea that this issue is a complicated one but I think that we must demand more information from our politics rather than trying to choose different ways after seeing how people didn't support the constitution presented. So, I guess that the first step needed here is trying to involve people in European issues because without this step what we are doing is building the Europe of a few.
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